rosecott
Money List Winner
Surely you mean a 5-iron for forummers.
CSS Farce
- Thread starter FairwayDodger
- Start date
Surely you mean a 5-iron for forummers.
chrisd
Major Champion
I didn't like to exaggerate as you've seen my feeble attempts with the bats!
nickjdavis
Head Pro
This I find amazing.
The inference I'm getting from this (and I'm not meaning to pick on you Imurg...I'm just quoting your post for reference) and the other posts I've read is that CSS is regularly lower than SSS, and rarely does it go up.
I've just looked at my own clubs comps for the last year and see the following spread of CSS...
SSS -1 : 9.5%
SSS :42.9%
SSS +1: 33.3%
SSS +2: 9.5%
SSS +3: 4.8%
This is pretty much what I would expect and seems to be at odds with what many posters here experience.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
What I mean by " moving in my favour" is that when CSS does move, it moves in a direction that doesn't benefit me. For example, when I make buffer, according to SSS, but CSS goes down so I miss out or, like this week, when I shoot 2 under SSS and CSS goes down so I get a smaller cut.
Without checking closely, I would say that CSS mostly stays put or goes down unless the comp is a Seniors Roll up qualifier when it regularly goes up as so few of them make buffer most of the time.
Without checking closely, I would say that CSS mostly stays put or goes down unless the comp is a Seniors Roll up qualifier when it regularly goes up as so few of them make buffer most of the time.
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Yep, I understood what you meant...I was commenting upon the frequency with which CSS goes down... and it seems to be something that others here suffer from as well. I was curious because I'd never perceived a similar thing happening at my club, so I dug through some past comp stats to see how often and by how much CSS deviated from SSS.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
There does seem to be a lot of CSS-1 about doesn't there? Surely this just means that SSS is too high? I've not seen CSS go down in a weekend comp all year at Blackmoor and rarely at RAGC off the white tees but can understand Imurg's frustration if it is happening regularly at his place.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
CSS goes up at our place more often that it goes down. I'm not at all surprised that the same is true of Blackmoor. It is a difficult course and even in slightly less than perfect conditions could become significantly more tricky. It is exactly this that CSS attempts to address
Courses where CSS goes down more than it goes up may would appear to indicate that scoring at that course is less affected when conditions are less favourable than one where CSS goes up more than down. Not all courses are the same. We accept SSS as a means of factoring that in but SSS is based on playing in average course and weather conditions. Not all courses are equally affected by weather, or indeed changes in tee or pin positions. However, handicaps at one course have to be comparable to handicaps at all other courses in all conditions. That is one of the fundamental principles of the system. SSS alone can't accommodate these variables.
Some courses may become much harder when conditions are unfavourable. E.g on a course with 4 short par 5's scoring may not be as adversely affected by windy or soft conditions compared to one which has 2 long 5's and 2 long par 4s instead. Slightly better than average conditions may equally make that first course much easier than the second course by bringing those short par 5s in range for more people. One course may have relatively flat greens with no really tough pins another may have wicked slopes where depending on the hole location a 3 putt may be a good result. When greens are quick the scores at the second course will be more affected than at the first course. Whilst all these courses may play about the same in "average" conditions, or with maybe a slight difference in SSS, any differences are likely to be magnified even by slight changes in conditions. Is my SSS -1 in superb conditions in July round my 6300 yard parkland course worth more than another player's SSS +2 round Carnoustie on a windy day in November? CSS might say "no" and I'd be inclined to agree.
I am interested in how this can properly be factored in without CSS, which at least is calculated the same way for every course and tries to introduce some degree of objective measurement into the impact of conditions on the day.
Courses where CSS goes down more than it goes up may would appear to indicate that scoring at that course is less affected when conditions are less favourable than one where CSS goes up more than down. Not all courses are the same. We accept SSS as a means of factoring that in but SSS is based on playing in average course and weather conditions. Not all courses are equally affected by weather, or indeed changes in tee or pin positions. However, handicaps at one course have to be comparable to handicaps at all other courses in all conditions. That is one of the fundamental principles of the system. SSS alone can't accommodate these variables.
Some courses may become much harder when conditions are unfavourable. E.g on a course with 4 short par 5's scoring may not be as adversely affected by windy or soft conditions compared to one which has 2 long 5's and 2 long par 4s instead. Slightly better than average conditions may equally make that first course much easier than the second course by bringing those short par 5s in range for more people. One course may have relatively flat greens with no really tough pins another may have wicked slopes where depending on the hole location a 3 putt may be a good result. When greens are quick the scores at the second course will be more affected than at the first course. Whilst all these courses may play about the same in "average" conditions, or with maybe a slight difference in SSS, any differences are likely to be magnified even by slight changes in conditions. Is my SSS -1 in superb conditions in July round my 6300 yard parkland course worth more than another player's SSS +2 round Carnoustie on a windy day in November? CSS might say "no" and I'd be inclined to agree.
I am interested in how this can properly be factored in without CSS, which at least is calculated the same way for every course and tries to introduce some degree of objective measurement into the impact of conditions on the day.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Because of the nature of statistically driven adjustments this will be what the vast majority do experience - but the perception will always be different!
Rhere's also the significant factor that many uk courses will vary significantly with conditions (they are more au naturel). As has been recognised what's good for some isn't necessarily good for all; although I would suggest that strong winds are tough for all - whilst they may deliver a relative advantage to a golfer who has the capability to handle them better.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
We had rain most of the day on Sunday.. just a constant steady drizzle . CSS 39pts (ok its normally 38 par 72 SSS 70) but it was constant rain ..
45 (16) 42 (13) 41 (14) were 1st /2nd/3rd .. no gross prize as too many people pulled out (??)
9 people out of 53 returned 38 pts or better ..
Cat 1 player got .1 for 37pts ..
No cat prize , no gross prize , i dunno why low handicappers would bother
I played rubbish by the way wouldnt have been near prizes & .1 all the way , so not a personal mona just a general 1
45 (16) 42 (13) 41 (14) were 1st /2nd/3rd .. no gross prize as too many people pulled out (??)
9 people out of 53 returned 38 pts or better ..
Cat 1 player got .1 for 37pts ..
No cat prize , no gross prize , i dunno why low handicappers would bother
I played rubbish by the way wouldnt have been near prizes & .1 all the way , so not a personal mona just a general 1
Sounds as though the course was playing easy, despite the rain. Often easier to play target golf in damp conditions as the ball will stop on the greens. When we recently had a long dry spell and the course got scorched, the ball was bouncing off the greens like ping pong balls and the scores went up accordingly, as most holes included a chip back from behind the green. Even in light winds we were getting CSS's that were 2 or 3 over the SSS. How many of the 9 people who scored 38 points or more were Cat-4's?
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
None , all Cat 3 & Cat 2 mate
I know how it works & as i say i wasnt affected as i played dirt anyhow
Just a moan really
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pbrown7582
Money List Winner
I would hazard a guess that you don't have a lot if low players with SSS -2 it is not an attractive course for a low h/cap?
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Was chatting with 2 of our cat 1 players . (well 1 now coz 1 of the guys got .1 for 37pts and is gone back to 5.5) they plan on moving next year , they are getting most if not all their cuts in away opens/scratch cups etc
Not attractive at all
MendieGK
Tour Winner
Don't want to rub salt in the wounds, but the CSS in the mens open i played in this week (par 72) was 77 & 78 - went up both days. i shot +10 off 4 both days and got cut each round (the joys of stableford adjustments).
MendieGK
Tour Winner
I've left/not joined courses before when SSS has been under par. losing 25% of your handicap is crazy.
pbrown7582
Money List Winner
MendieGK
Tour Winner
SSS is 76.
D
Deleted member 3432
Guest
Usually means your handicap travels well!
My home track is par 72, sss70. Always seem to get more cuts at away courses as you can afford to make an occasionally bogie.
Stableford adjustment saved me yesterday at my away club, treble on a par 3 meant I sneaked into buffer with CSS going up in a strong wind which was coming from the opposite direction to normal making the back 9 horrendously tough.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
We run comps from both 72/73 and 72/71 tees and all the players, inc the lowest, find the latter easier to score relative to SSS. We also use 72/74 a few times a year and that's even harder (relative to SSS).
You aren't giving anything away when the SSS is under par - just change the designation of the shortest par 5 to a par 4 and any such issue disappears!
Craigg
Q-School Graduate
Our shortest par 5 is 465yds with the approach severely up hill, which if you dont carry, it rolls back down the hill. I ain't getting on there in 2 in this life or any other!
