Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Deleted member 16999]

Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting, until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree with what you say Phil, but what I would add is, is the fact it’s an issue with modern culture and the numbers game.

We should remember it is the Government that put these numbers out and that is because the media and the public want them and MP’s of all parties fall into the trap.
ie, When questioned on death tolls the PM has to learn to forget numbers and simply state the intention is to get it as low as possible due to being in an unknown situation.

Hancock should of stated we have ordered miliions of test kits and we will endeavour to get as many done as possible, improving as we go.

I don’t blame the PM or Hancock it could be politicians from any Party, this time it’s them, but they need to stop being bullied or falling into the trap of the numbers game.

The only time any MP needs to worry about exact targets is when it’s a GE.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

This is just so not true - but it is the agenda that those supporting the government - it seems no matter what happens - would like to spin. Flaws in what the government is doing should concern as all - but apparently not.

Many of us simply struggle to trust this government because of what some of us see as the Brexit debacle and the history of some of the key participants in making that happen - and who are now the ministers and advisors. What I want is openness, clarity and honesty from the government. If the government chooses to provide us with comparative data then I am absolutely entitled to make observations and raise questions on what that data says.

That supporters of this government seem to completely fail to understand this very simple fact of life - and they continue to spin any scepticism and questioning as being politically motivated and anti-government - frankly astonishes me.

Well, it shouldn't astonish you, because you take every opportunity to have a little nip at the PM and his ministers. As you allude to above, uppermost in your mind is the brexit debate, and you will never forgive them for their stance on that.
You make posts saying that in this crisis they have a difficult job etc etc and damn them with faint praise, because in that post somewhere is you saying or inferring that you don't trust them( e.g. Post 1406 in the Boris thread ).
Always the little dig.
I'm a bit sceptical myself of Tory policies in normal times. I believe in nationalisation of Utilities, and railways. (The former on national security basis, our energy should be in the Country's hands etc, and the latter on the basis of the country's money is running them, so it should own them), so I am not a one Party for life man.
However, this is a national crisis and I am not so biased as to worry about the
Party identity of the government , but more in the belief that the government wants to do the best for the Country at this time.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

View attachment 30447

The deaths per million are key. look at Belgium, Spain is still a fair bit ahead too, as is Italy

Russia is going to explode as is India,
it aint over yet, unfortunately

Speaking with our Belgian friends on Sunday one of the key drivers of the Belgium numbers is that Carnival went ahead over weekend of 23/24 Feb - three days with many tens of thousands crammed together in the small town of Aalst - with the numbers in Carnival very large relative to the population of the country as a whole (11.5m).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well, it shouldn't astonish you, because you take every opportunity to have a little nip at the PM and his ministers. As you allude to above, uppermost in your mind is the brexit debate, and you will never forgive them for their stance on that.
You make posts saying that in this crisis they have a difficult job etc etc and damn them with faint praise, because in that post somewhere is you saying or inferring that you don't trust them( e.g. Post 1406 in the Boris thread ).
Always the little dig.
I'm a bit sceptical myself of Tory policies in normal times. I believe in nationalisation of Utilities, and railways. (The former on national security basis, our energy should be in the Country's hands etc, and the latter on the basis of the country's money is running them, so it should own them), so I am not a one Party for life man.
However, this is a national crisis and I am not so biased as to worry about the
Party identity of the government , but more in the belief that the government wants to do the best for the Country at this time.

And neither am I - all I am bothered about is openness and honesty from those I have come to distrust over the previous 4 yrs - yes - because of the Brexit debacle - but that is simply how it is. It is now up to these same ministers to demonstrate to us ALL that, as you say - they are doing the best for the country at this time.

It is a pity that many are apparently unable to differentiate between 'having a dig' and 'asking a question'

 

[Old Skier]

And neither am I - all I am bothered about is openness and honesty from those I have come to distrust over the previous 4 yrs - yes - because of the Brexit debacle - but that is simply how it is. It is now up to these same ministers to demonstrate to us ALL that, as you say - they are doing the best for the country at this time.

It is a pity that many are apparently unable to differentiate between 'having a dig' and 'asking a question'

No you never have a dig, you just have a quote "from a friend". Why do you distrust them/it/who, Cant be those in the "current" government, they did exactly what they said they would do.

 

[drdel]

This is just so not true - but it is the agenda that those supporting the government - it seems no matter what happens - would like to spin. Flaws in what the government is doing should concern as all - but apparently not.

Many of us simply struggle to trust this government because of what some of us see as the Brexit debacle and the history of some of the key participants in making that happen - and who are now the ministers and advisors. What I want is openness, clarity and honesty from the government. If the government chooses to provide us with comparative data then I am absolutely entitled to make observations and raise questions on what that data says.

That supporters of this government seem to completely fail to understand this very simple fact of life - and they continue to spin any scepticism and questioning as being politically motivated and anti-government - frankly astonishes me.

It is a pity that you seem to be permanently set on an anti-Government path. The "Brexit debacle" was a failure of UK Parliament and politicians on both the EU and UK sides.

You continuously argued for openness during the years from 2016 and now during this pandemic you want more and more - information than may actually be unavailable or yet decided. You claim to want honesty but only want to believe the truth that fits, the rest is 'spin' in you opinion. The daily briefing are surely the best example of openness and the system that could be used at this time

You say you want to review comparable data yet sem to diisgard the fact that the collection methods and data noise in much interational info. is highly variable. Germany for example has researchers who are claiming vastly different and much higher rates than their Government's.

I guess the last paragraph fits with you Brexit stance that supporters of leaving the EU were mentally challenged sheep. IMO it is the best example of irony I have seen in a while.

 

[Wolf]

And neither am I - all I am bothered about is openness and honesty from those I have come to distrust over the previous 4 yrs - yes - because of the Brexit debacle - but that is simply how it is. It is now up to these same ministers to demonstrate to us ALL that, as you say - they are doing the best for the country at this time.

It is a pity that many are apparently unable to differentiate between 'having a dig' and 'asking a question'

I think the problem many have when you discus anything political SiLH is that you often contradict yourself, you will give praise in one sentence then have a back handed dig in the very next one. You will post how you're supporting them then in the very next one say you can't get behind them and don't trust anything they say. Which makes it difficult to separate a question from a dig, when you often have both intertwined.

You nail your colours to the fence then white wash over them with something that completely is the opposite of what claim to be saying. I genuinely do think you care and have best intentions of the nation at heart, but sometimes you allow all that's past and the opinions of those from the past affect your ability to fully open up about the future you don't allow for separation of topics based on there own merit. It's similar how you're letting in your words Brexit cloud your judgment of the government dealing with Coronavirus, they are not one and the same they must be looked at as wholly separate issues to be dealt with in order of priority.

I didn't want brexit, I didn't want a Tory government, I didn't want a labour one either for that matter based on last manifesto but I can accept Brexit has been passed we lost that vote, this government is the one we're left with to fight this battle with Covid-19 but to hold them to account for a figures head to head with another country that reports differently or to let my own political leanings based on something that was passed as the country voted on it would not be in my own interests or that of helping support a government trying to do its best in this situation.

 

[Old Skier]

^^^^^^^

 

[Foxholer]

Could be, maybe I am deaf

No probs. That's likely why there was no greater 'fuss' about the number. Unverifiable and probably all sorts of possible reasons for 'no-shows'.

 

[rudebhoy]

Doon if you listened to Andrew Marr on Sunday , there was a bloke from the Office of National Statistics, who was very interesting to hear
He said that countries are not counting deaths in the same way, some are counting it if Corona is the sole cause of death, others, like us are counting it if Corona is a contributory factor in that death

It would obviously be far easier if all countries could use the same method of counting, until that happens, you are comparing Asparagus and Aubergines

At the end of all this the only way to tell will be to compare the number of deaths over a period of time, with averages from past years
and the ratio of deaths to population numbers

In the meantime, spinning the numbers to your own political agenda, helps nobody[/QUOTE]


I agree that comparisons with other countries are flawed. However the fact is that the ONS are telling us that as of April 24, the real UK figure was 32,000 dead, while Johnson is congratulating us for "succeeding in avoiding the awful tragedy seen in other countries". Notwithstanding he is comparing us against other countries, that is an appalling piece of spin by anyone's standards. Maybe he should read your last sentence.

 

[i*windows]

in Germany we get a daily new case record sent to us via SMS if you subscribe to it. Which is pretty useful if you want to track the trends yourself

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the problem many have when you discus anything political SiLH is that you often contradict yourself, you will give praise in one sentence then have a back handed dig in the very next one. You will post how you're supporting them then in the very next one say you can't get behind them and don't trust anything they say. Which makes it difficult to separate a question from a dig, when you often have both intertwined.

You nail your colours to the fence then white wash over them with something that completely is the opposite of what claim to be saying. I genuinely do think you care and have best intentions of the nation at heart, but sometimes you allow all that's past and the opinions of those from the past affect your ability to fully open up about the future you don't allow for separation of topics based on there own merit. It's similar how you're letting in your words Brexit cloud your judgment of the government dealing with Coronavirus, they are not one and the same they must be looked at as wholly separate issues to be dealt with in order of priority.

I didn't want brexit, I didn't want a Tory government, I didn't want a labour one either for that matter based on last manifesto but I can accept Brexit has been passed we lost that vote, this government is the one we're left with to fight this battle with Covid-19 but to hold them to account for a figures head to head with another country that reports differently or to let my own political leanings based on something that was passed as the country voted on it would not be in my own interests or that of helping support a government trying to do its best in this situation.

I have explained many times that I am conflicted. I know I must trust in people that I frankly do not particularly trust. That I might not trust them does not however stop me from praising them for the good stuff - and it does not stop me for ask questions of them when I am not so sure.

 

[Foxholer]

I think the problem many have when you discus anything political SiLH is that you often contradict yourself, you will give praise in one sentence then have a back handed dig in the very next one. You will post how you're supporting them then in the very next one say you can't get behind them and don't trust anything they say. Which makes it difficult to separate a question from a dig, when you often have both intertwined.

You nail your colours to the fence then white wash over them with something that completely is the opposite of what claim to be saying. I genuinely do think you care and have best intentions of the nation at heart, but sometimes you allow all that's past and the opinions of those from the past affect your ability to fully open up about the future you don't allow for separation of topics based on there own merit. It's similar how you're letting in your words Brexit cloud your judgment of the government dealing with Coronavirus, they are not one and the same they must be looked at as wholly separate issues to be dealt with in order of priority.

I didn't want brexit, I didn't want a Tory government, I didn't want a labour one either for that matter based on last manifesto but I can accept Brexit has been passed we lost that vote, this government is the one we're left with to fight this battle with Covid-19 but to hold them to account for a figures head to head with another country that reports differently or to let my own political leanings based on something that was passed as the country voted on it would not be in my own interests or that of helping support a government trying to do its best in this situation.

That approach could also be described as 'unbiased' - praising where it is due, but not totally trusting either what they say or what their motives for saying it really are! Not (totally) trusting politicians (of any flavour) is pretty sensible imo!

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of anti-Brexiters HAVE moved on, if not to a 'delighted', then at lest an 'accepted' one. But the entire process did little, if anything, to improve the general public's 'trust' of politicians in general (save, perhaps, imo, the bunch of Tory rebels who stuck to their beliefs and 'crossed the floor' - though others might consider them 'traitors'!). In fact, I believe overall 'trust' of politicians has probably declined - and quite significantly and will likely decrease further - as a result of the Brexit issue! It's being 'tested' again and so soon after Brexit that the 'trust' issue is still significant.

Oh, and Labour's daft, 'Union preference' oriented method of Leader selection produced a disaster imo. Hopefully, the new one - still decided by that process - can overcome Corbyn's frailties, as an effective Opposition is essential to (my view of) democracy!

 

[Foxholer]

I have explained many times that I am conflicted. I know I must trust in people that I frankly do not particularly trust. That I might not trust them does not however stop me from praising them for the good stuff - and it does not stop me for ask questions of them when I am not so sure.

Better that approach than blindly/unthinkingly following (sheep-like) to slaughter - at least imo!

 

[Wolf]

I have explained many times that I am conflicted. I know I must trust in people that I frankly do not particularly trust. That I might not trust them does not however stop me from praising them for the good stuff - and it does not stop me for ask questions of them when I am not so sure.

Questions isn't an issue SiLH and every government should be questioned, but when you lace the same post with a question and a dig, ultimately the dig gets more responses. Plus you still have to separate issues Brexit isn't Covid-19 each issue must be judge and dealt with accordingly not as one and the same. It also doesn't help when you question sanity of people voting a certain way by liking them to sheep.

Plus being conflicted isn't a bad thing if anything it should help you remain more abject and judge each thing on merit, however the conflict you post doesn't come across that you have issue with the situation but more as though the conflict is you can't let yourself agree with the government. Its as though the conflict isn't with the government at all but that its in your own political beliefs.

My dad is the same he refuses to vote Tory because his dad and his family are Labour yet he didn't agree with any of the Labour manifesto at last GE, is an adamant brexiteer and prefer what Tories offered. So who did he vote for Labour! Because he was to conflicted personally to vote for the party actually offering what he wanted because they were Tories.

I mention my dad as to not single you out as you're far from alone in those feelings but as a nation we all need to learn to evolve and somehow look beyond the party in name and vote for what we truly believe. In my lifetime I've voted Labour, Tory & Lib Dem, even now I'd say my political leanings are probably more Lib Dem than either main party. But we are a long way as a nation from ever being unbiased or agreeable.

I've probably waffled to much now but as I've said I honestly believe you have nations best interests at heart and want what's best for us all and with the work you & your wife do through charity or your church your more of an example to us all what a kind heart and nature can be, but all I would perhaps suggest is next time your conflicted take time to think on that before posting the questions with a dig interlaced then you may get a better debate and not get so many on here effectively call you out on something where you probably have the best intentions.

P. S great news on Mrs Hogie btw ?? every one else sorry for the long post ?

 

[Wolf]

That approach could also be described as 'unbiased' - praising where it is due, but not totally trusting either what they say or what their motives for saying it really are! Not (totally) trusting politicians (of any flavour) is pretty sensible imo!

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of anti-Brexiters HAVE moved on, if not to a 'delighted', then at lest an 'accepted' one. But the entire process did little, if anything, to improve the general public's 'trust' of politicians in general (save, perhaps, imo, the bunch of Tory rebels who stuck to their beliefs and 'crossed the floor' - though others might consider them 'traitors'!). In fact, I believe overall 'trust' of politicians has probably declined - and quite significantly and will likely decrease further - as a result of the Brexit issue! It's being 'tested' again and so soon after Brexit that the 'trust' issue is still significant.

Oh, and Labour's daft, 'Union preference' oriented method of Leader selection produced a disaster imo. Hopefully, the new one - still decided by that process - can overcome Corbyn's frailties, as an effective Opposition is essential to (my view of) democracy!

As i mentioned in my above albeit a little lengthy reply to SiLH, absolutely nothing wrong with conflict or questions both are very good to have, but lacing questions with a dig, takes away credibility of the questions and people merely jump on the dig, and I'll hands up admit to having been guilty of doing that.

Now isn't the time to debate brexit or use it as a yardstick to judge government in during Covid-19 that's all my point is.

As for your last paragraph spot on in their selection process and essential opposition to effective government. Completely agree with you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The contract tracers will be civil servants and mostly call center staff. You have a test, you prove positive, phone rings if your not an app user and you are asked where/who you may have been with over the last - 5? days then the fun(tracing) will begin. Well that's how or MP explained it on her daily FB briefings.

So the contact tracers won't be using the phone/app IDs that the infected persons phone has logged? Or that is what the tracers will do if the individual the infected person mentions does not have the app. So the individuals phone is not linked to an App ID? For App users is the App ID linked to a phone number and stored on a central database. So when an App user is tested positive, his App record can be examined and all proximate users logged against the person tested positive are pulled up - they will each have an associated phone number that the tracers can use to contact all those proximate persons?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Questions isn't an issue SiLH and every government should be questioned, but when you lace the same post with a question and a dig, ultimately the dig gets more responses. Plus you still have to separate issues Brexit isn't Covid-19 each issue must be judge and dealt with accordingly not as one and the same. It also doesn't help when you question sanity of people voting a certain way by liking them to sheep.

Plus being conflicted isn't a bad thing if anything it should help you remain more abject and judge each thing on merit, however the conflict you post doesn't come across that you have issue with the situation but more as though the conflict is you can't let yourself agree with the government. Its as though the conflict isn't with the government at all but that its in your own political beliefs.

My dad is the same he refuses to vote Tory because his dad and his family are Labour yet he didn't agree with any of the Labour manifesto at last GE, is an adamant brexiteer and prefer what Tories offered. So who did he vote for Labour! Because he was to conflicted personally to vote for the party actually offering what he wanted because they were Tories.

I mention my dad as to not single you out as you're far from alone in those feelings but as a nation we all need to learn to evolve and somehow look beyond the party in name and vote for what we truly believe. In my lifetime I've voted Labour, Tory & Lib Dem, even now I'd say my political leanings are probably more Lib Dem than either main party. But we are a long way as a nation from ever being unbiased or agreeable.

I've probably waffled to much now but as I've said I honestly believe you have nations best interests at heart and want what's best for us all and with the work you & your wife do through charity or your church your more of an example to us all what a kind heart and nature can be, but all I would perhaps suggest is next time your conflicted take time to think on that before posting the questions with a dig interlaced then you may get a better debate and not get so many on here effectively call you out on something where you probably have the best intentions.

P. S great news on Mrs Hogie btw ?? every one else sorry for the long post ?

Yes I will ask a question of a minister - though in truth I am not sure I have asked that many on this forum - but that is not the same as having a dig.

Simply highlighting the FACT that many people do not trust our PM and many of his ministers and advisors is not having a dig; neither is asking a question or in any way having a doubt over what I am told having a dig. It is simply seeking clarification to enable me to NOT doubt.

The government must surely understand that there are many who feel as I do and therefore they must try and avoid wherever possible making statements or claims that could be considered as being of doubtful provenance or basis. Just don't do it. Which is why I considered the spin around the 120,000 tests a day on 30th April as stupid as it was unnecessary.

Many thanks on my Mrs - yes it was a great relief.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As i mentioned in my above albeit a little lengthy reply to SiLH, absolutely nothing wrong with conflict or questions both are very good to have, but lacing questions with a dig, takes away credibility of the questions and people merely jump on the dig, and I'll hands up admit to having been guilty of doing that.

Now isn't the time to debate brexit or use it as a yardstick to judge government in during Covid-19 that's all my point is.

As for your last paragraph spot on in their selection process and essential opposition to effective government. Completely agree with you.

I am not using Brexit as a debating point. That's done and dusted. Gone. But for me Brexit (or rather the debate and those involved) remains the source of the distrust I hold for some. And that's just how it is.

 

[Wolf]

Yes I will ask a question of a minister - though in truth I am not sure I have asked that many on this forum - but that is not the same as having a dig.

Simply highlighting the FACT that many people do not trust our PM and many of his ministers and advisors is not having a dig; neither is asking a question or in any way having a doubt over what I am told having a dig. It is simply seeking clarification to enable me to NOT doubt.

The government must surely understand that there are many who feel as I do and therefore they must try and avoid wherever possible making statements or claims that could be considered as being of doubtful provenance or basis. Just don't do it. Which is why I considered the spin around the 120,000 tests a day on 30th April as stupid as it was unnecessary.

Many thanks on my Mrs - yes it was a great relief.

I think perhaps you may need to read back over your own posts then if you cannot see where the digs are being made or what you say is being responded to. The fact so many people respond to the comments would suggest the digs subtle and interlaced into your questions or otherwise are there.

I am not using Brexit as a debating point. That's done and dusted. Gone. But for me Brexit (or rather the debate and those involved) remains the source of the distrust I hold for some. And that's just how it is.

I never said you were using as a debating point merely allowing it to cloud your judgement of the current situation which you've agreed with me on 3 times.

I'm not going to clog this thread up further with us going back and forth. As i said i believe you have the best intentions and that's what matters.