Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Hobbit]

For the record I’d be just annoyed with any Health Secretary regardless of Party allegiance.

But it proves again that posters can’t criticise a Government Minister without some questioning the poster’s political slant and reading more in to it than is intended.

No I'm not letting you off with that one. Surely its a natural assumption that someone who is perceived to favour a particular party will be viewed, sometimes wrongly, of having a bias? Maybe in this instance you're not coming from a point of bias but its not unreasonable, even if wrongly, to assume you are.

 

[Wolf]

I’m not going over old ground, we had this yesterday, the Government responsibility does not stop at the handing over of the money.

Why have the MOD become involved? Is it possible the NHS aren’t coping?

That bit in bold wasn't there when i initially replied. Its also a somewhat ambiguous comment because we're in a global pandemic likes of which we've not seen in UK in generations. The MOD are involved because in times of national crisis they are part of the contingency that allows the country to continue to function and assist the NHS with more mundane jobs allowing the qualified staff to get on with what's more important.

You could flip that during a war and ask why reserves are called up is it because the forces can't cope. No it's because in times of peace or in this case non pandemic the staffing numbers don't need to be at the level that is required in national emergency.

 

[drdel]

I’m not going over old ground, we had this yesterday, the Government responsibility does not stop at the handing over of the money.

Why have the MOD become involved? Is it possible the NHS aren’t coping?

It's a pandemic, MOD is rightly providing surge capacity which is exactly what the services do I exceptional situations. If the NHS kept resources of the magnitude now needed it would be vastly under utilized

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But you are going over it by continuing to post its the government fault and responsibility.

The government is responsible for providing the money trusts are responsible for their own procurement as they are the ones on the ground with the inventory of what they have and need. Are they then ultimately responsible for investigation of failures by trusts yes they are, but now isn't the time to investigate now is time to fund the trusts and trust our hospitals to do what's right by staff and patients.

If some trusts are failing you suggest we continue to let them fail and ask why afterwards!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

That bit in bold wasn't there when i initially replied. Its also a somewhat ambiguous comment because we're in a global pandemic likes of which we've not seen in UK in generations. The MOD are involved because in times of national crisis they are part of the contingency that allows the country to continue to function and assist the NHS with more mundane jobs allowing the qualified staff to get on with what's more important.

You could flip that during a war and ask why reserves are called up is it because the forces can't cope. No it's because in times of peace or in this case non pandemic the staffing numbers don't need to be at the level that is required in national emergency.

It's a pandemic, MOD is rightly providing surge capacity which is exactly what the services do I exceptional situations. If the NHS kept resources of the magnitude now needed it would be vastly under utilized

So you both hit the nail on the head with the problems we’re facing and previously have fallen back on stating the Government is not responsible for NHS Procurement.

Sorry, but in this crisis they can’t pick and choose which bits they will take responsibility for and which bits they can hand off to someone else.

 

[Wolf]

If some trusts are failing you suggest we continue to let them fail and ask why afterwards!

Did I say that, no I didn't your spinning what's written to suit your agenda Paul. I said now isn't time to investigate but to provide funding by that I mean give them the money to support them whether that is through purely giving money to buy more or use the money to employ someone better suited to the role or procurement is upto to the trust or the local quality care commission. That is not the responsibility of one man (Hancock) to do it all for them.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

You could apply your logic to foodbanks etc, there shouldn't be a need to "step up."

There's undoubtedly some truth to be found out in all of this. Yesterday I spoke to a friend, again, that is an ITU sister. I, again(3 times now), asked about PPE. And, again, she said there's no problem with stock. She did say that a few of the staff get a bee in their bonnet about it when they're down to a couple of boxes of gowns but she reminds them that they always run with only a box or 2 in stock, and they have always got their stock on time. Maybe the hospital she works at is well run, or maybe the hype we hear is just hype. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in between.

We've also heard Fish say that he and his fellow couriers have been dropping PPE off at places where the last drop-off of PPE is still sitting there.

We'll all find out one day soon about the truth behind it all. Until then let's hope everything continues to go the right way.

Needs more than hope Bri, it needs done on facts.

Hancock could of thanked the DM and at the same time questioned why they believed it was needed if it’s all in hand.

 

[Wolf]

So you both hit the nail on the head with the problems we’re facing and previously have fallen back on stating the Government is not responsible for NHS Procurement.

Sorry, but in this crisis they can’t pick and choose which bits they will take responsibility for and which bits they can hand off to someone else.

Again your spinning to suit Paul and its coming across as quite Pedantic. Read what's actually being said and not what and how you want to read it.

Government is not responsible for procurement, MOD involvement is not purely for procurement but for many other roles but you tunnelling it purely back to suit your agenda.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Did I say that, no I didn't your spinning what's written to suit your agenda Paul. I said now isn't time to investigate but to provide funding by that I mean give them the money to support them whether that is through purely giving money to buy more or use the money to employ someone better suited to the role or procurement is upto to the trust or the local quality care commission. That is not the responsibility of one man (Hancock) to do it all for them.

So when is the time? You’re saying now isn’t the time to investigate and with outside agencies feeling they need to step up and hobbit telling us some hospitals are fine, where is this perceived problem PPE needed and why isn’t it being nipped in the bud?

 

[IanM]

I have worked on one Public Sector Procurement in my life. I refuse to work on another one. I can can say no more!

 

[Hobbit]

So you both hit the nail on the head with the problems we’re facing and previously have fallen back on stating the Government is not responsible for NHS Procurement.

Sorry, but in this crisis they can’t pick and choose which bits they will take responsibility for and which bits they can hand off to someone else.

I agree with you on this one. The govt provide the resource, and if the problem is still there, there needs to be a discussion between both the govt and the NHS Procurement about why that resource hasn't satisfied the need. AND its the govt's responsibility to provide more resource if needed.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Again your spinning to suit Paul and its coming across as quite Pedantic. Read what's actually being said and not what and how you want to read it.

Government is not responsible for procurement, MOD involvement is not purely for procurement but for many other roles but you tunnelling it purely back to suit your agenda.

No I’m not, the Government have stepped up the MOD and other agencies to help.

Someone, somewhere believes there is an issue with PPE, why isn’t NHS Procurement getting the help they so obviously need, you keep saying the Govrrnment is not responsible for this one element, I totally disagree and it’s not being pedantic when I say they are responsible for every single bit.

 

[SocketRocket]

So when is the time? You’re saying now isn’t the time to investigate and with outside agencies feeling they need to step up and hobbit telling us some hospitals are fine, where is this perceived problem PPE needed and why isn’t it being nipped in the bud?

Just maybe everyone is doing their best and nows not the time to start outside investigations. Would you not expect the management structures to be trying to get efficiency and best results? The Daily Mail supplying some PPE and Hancock thanking them is nothing for people to get politically lathered up about.

 

[Wolf]

So when is the time? You’re saying now isn’t the time to investigate and with outside agencies feeling they need to step up and hobbit telling us some hospitals are fine, where is this perceived problem PPE needed and why isn’t it being nipped in the bud?

The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it. When people can be pulled away from where they need to be.

No I’m not, the Government have stepped up the MOD and other agencies to help.

Someone, somewhere believes there is an issue with PPE, why isn’t NHS Procurement getting the help they so obviously need, you keep saying the Govrrnment is not responsible for this one element, I totally disagree and it’s not being pedantic when I say they are responsible for every single bit.

Yes you are, government have stepped up the MOD for numerous roles not just provision of PPE but that is the only area you focus on because it's suits what you want to push and talk about.

I'm not going to continue to debate it with you because clearly you cannot see past your own view point that everything seemingly is about PPE including the MOD, depsite fact they were used to build nightingale hospitals, drive oxygen trucks which are needed in greater numbers or drive ambulances so that instead of having qualified technicians sat by a roadside they can have them in emergency rooms and in wards providing health care to the sick. None of those uses for the MOD are PPE related but you don't seem to want to look at positive uses.

So on that basis I'm out ?

 

[SocketRocket]

I agree with you on this one. The govt provide the resource, and if the problem is still there, there needs to be a discussion between both the govt and the NHS Procurement about why that resource hasn't satisfied the need. AND its the govt's responsibility to provide more resource if needed.

And there probably have been discussions and more resource supplied through the military.

 

[MegaSteve]

My post suggested the GOVERNMENT instruct Civil Servants to sort things out so how can you turn that around to me saying unelected unaccountable bureaucrats are being given responsibility. The clue in my post was 'Government instruct' or do we expect Matt Hancock to go out and do it all on his own.

Happy for government to appoint/instruct 'agents' to deliver it's responsibilities as long as it retains the accountability...

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it. When people can be pulled away from where they need to be.

Yes you are, government have stepped up the MOD for numerous roles not just provision of PPE but that is the only area you focus on because it's suits what you want to push and talk about.

I'm not going to continue to debate it with you because clearly you cannot see past your own view point that everything seemingly is about PPE including the MOD, depsite fact they were used to build nightingale hospitals, drive oxygen trucks which are needed in greater numbers or drive ambulances so that instead of having qualified technicians sat by a roadside they can have them in emergency rooms and in wards providing health care to the sick. None of those uses for the MOD are PPE related but you don't seem to want to look at positive uses.

So on that basis I'm out ?

Disappointing post tbf, you accusse me of spin then do exactly that over my point with the MOD, I was using them as an example of the Government calling in support of an outside resource, nowhere did I make their role specific.

As for investigating all failings post curve, I’m gobsmacked, just how many NHS Staff lives are you willing to risk while we get over the peak?

Even with your Military background you know no plan survives first contact and you remain flexible, I’m sure if out on Patrol you received information that could cost lives you wouldn’t carry on and discuss it in the post op report.

 

[SocketRocket]

Happy for government to appoint/instruct 'agents' to deliver it's responsibilities as long as it retains the accountability...

Aren't we all accountable for our actions.

 

[Wolf]

Disappointing post tbf, you accusse me of spin then do exactly that over my point with the MOD, I was using them as an example of the Government calling in support of an outside resource, nowhere did I make their role specific.

As for investigating all failings post curve, I’m gobsmacked, just how many NHS Staff lives are you willing to risk while we get over the peak?

Even with your Military background you know no plan survives first contact and you remain flexible, I’m sure if out on Patrol you received information that could cost lives you wouldn’t carry on and discuss it in the post op report.

No spin I've stated facts of other things that have been done. Feel free to be disappointed, I wasn't seeking your approval.

You say my post is poor but I'm sorry this last one of yours is in very poor tatse.

I have not said any loss of life is acceptable so don't throw that at me.

Plus i know very well how a military contact works in a war zone having been involved in several so again poor bringing that up at all as that is something I simply refuse to discuss personal experience of on an open forum

So as such a I refer you back to my last response to you...

I'm out and refuse to debate any further with someone unwilling to even listen or spin in their own favour

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No spin I've stated facts of other things that have been done. Feel free to be disappointed, I wasn't seeking your approval.

You say my post is poor but I'm sorry this last one of yours is in very poor tatse.

I have not said any loss of life is acceptable so don't throw that at me.

Plus i know very well how a military contact works in a war zone having been involved in several so again poor bringing that up at all as that is something I simply refuse to discuss personal experience of on an open forum

So as such a I refer you back to my last response to you...

I'm out and refuse to debate any further with someone unwilling to even listen or spin in their own favour

You can keep saying you are out as much as you like, it doesn’t stop me replying.

I have spun nothing, you took my words to mean one thing without clarification, as for saying my post is in poor taste look at what you posted about investigations.

If just one Trust has performed poorly in procuring PPE the knock on effect is that it could put Staff lives at risk.
That in my opinion is unacceptable and needs sorting as soon as it is found out, you stated and I quote

“The time to investigate all of the failings is post curve once we're past the worst of it.”

Hence my question to you about acceptable loss of life.

Then your Military Career? Were on earth did I ask you to discuss your time on Operations?

Even on exercise and training you’re taught to remain flexible and think on your feet etc.