Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...
- Thread starter AmandaJR
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Pin-seeker
Well-known member
I’ve been saying this all along.
IF the government have been giving adequate funding(debatable) then I think others should also be shouldering the blame for lack of PPE.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Rubbish mate, these are unprecedented times, it is the responsibility of any Government to look after its citizens and if it’s going wrong (which needs to be determined) they should step in and sort it out.
They don’t have a bottomless pit of money to allow useless Trust’s to continue wasting money, all the Trusts are accountable to the Government and one Trust shouldn’t be stockpiling while another suffers.
Responsibility doesn’t stop at point of money being supplied.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Do you think that those running the trusts should have been the medias first point of call when/if this situation is as bad as the media paint it. Many doctors and nurses have stated PPE wasn't an issue with others saying it was. Instead of people concentrating on a possible shortfall shouldn't they look at the anomalies between trusts and care organizations.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Yes yes yes, this has been my point all along, shut the media up by getting a true and complete picture of the PPE situation in the whole of the NHS.
Only the Government has the power to do this, appoint a Civil Servant to oversee it or an MP from any Party, do something to get an overall picture.
Then hopefully as the pressure eases on Trusts the Government or their representative can instruct said Trusts to redistribute some PPE to Care Homes etc.
Currently it seems people are happy for the Government to throw money at it and let the Trusts do their own thing.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
There in lies the problem. The current media are only interested in negative and pointing the finger of blame stories. There have been several stories where military sources have highlighted the shocking state the NHS procurement systems are but you don't see any follow up by the main media sources.
I'm not happy with throwing the money at it policy. It's time the trusts were disbanded and the country split into 4-5 regions. Save a fortune in non clinical posts which in to many cases are full of clinicians who were shifted sideways.
Individual Trusts don't look at a global strategic level. The UK govt knew it was coming. What instruction did Matt Hancock put his signature to, and send out to Procurement? Whatever the detail is around that question it needs looking at. What instruction was sent to NHS Procurement? Matt Hancock will have had Dept of Health briefings, and he and his team should have been making strategic decisions ahead of D-day that would at least mitigate what might happen.
If the instruction went out, and was sent in good time, why is it such an issue? Let's not point fingers now but someone will be putting together a list of questions - Mr K Starmer(?)
If the instruction went out, and was sent in good time, why is it such an issue? Let's not point fingers now but someone will be putting together a list of questions - Mr K Starmer(?)
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
I posted on here some time ago in responce to some comments being made about PPE shortages. I made the point there is a supply and demand issue as we are experiencing an unprecedented global demand for PPE. Looking for someone to blame for shortages seems rather churlish and assumes an expectation for perfect hindsight. Should the procurement departments have made provisions for a possible pandemic? would it be a reasonable expectation for the money to have been available just in case there would be a world pandemic around the corner? what would be the media response be to large stores of PPE that no doubt will have expiry dates?
It seems to me both the Trusts and Government are working hard to obtain suitable quantities of PPE from a limited number of overseas suppliers at the same time as so many other countries, demand is outstripping supply, I guess there were problems getting suitable quantities of medical supplies during the world wars.
There will indeed be an opportunity to examine and learn from our experience and hopefully the logistics can be improved should we be faced with this type of challenge again.
It seems to me both the Trusts and Government are working hard to obtain suitable quantities of PPE from a limited number of overseas suppliers at the same time as so many other countries, demand is outstripping supply, I guess there were problems getting suitable quantities of medical supplies during the world wars.
There will indeed be an opportunity to examine and learn from our experience and hopefully the logistics can be improved should we be faced with this type of challenge again.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
But if a government Pandemic Test shows massive fail, and one of the major areas of fail was PPE, do you not think that it might be incumbent on the government - with their ultimate duty of care to the people of the country being to keep us safe - to absolutely make sure that the NHS is getting the PPE in place - using funding it may provide to the NHS for such purpose to absolutely make sure that the gap in PPE is closed - or at least boosted to a level that reduces very significantly the probability of major failure. That is what you'd expect a government to do - not just rely on the NHS to do it when it is also subject to huge Brexit-preparation pressures.
All will be examined in the reckoning that will come. Not a lot of benefit in battering the government at the moment for past failures that can't be fixed - but worthwhile continuing to check that past failures aren't repeated.
drdel
Tour Rookie
My understanding is that the PPE in hospitals is, in general, a managed/improving situation but the worldwide production will continue to be behind demand.
However the care sector's PP situation is another ball game. I think, if we are frank, the care sector is often private sector businesses who try to cut costs and maximise profits. Most of the ones I've come across are pretty dire places with low paid staff and their management is not that professional. Essentially the more caring they are the higher their costs so expecting such businesses to invest in emergency planning is dreamland. It is a massive challenge to get these businesses to honestly admit failings is just one issue and the Government must be sure that any help is actually used where it is needed.
I do not for one minute suggest most of the staff at the front line in care homes are not compassionate but these business are run on a minimum cost basis ( even the LA operated homes) ; they exist for profit and RoI.
We can expect that the deaths attributed to the virus in the Care Home sector will rise significantly. How the Government will diplomatically addresses will be interesting - the issue is that there are a lot of rubbish businesses not saying as it is will be a real challenge and its a fact the media will overlook.
However the care sector's PP situation is another ball game. I think, if we are frank, the care sector is often private sector businesses who try to cut costs and maximise profits. Most of the ones I've come across are pretty dire places with low paid staff and their management is not that professional. Essentially the more caring they are the higher their costs so expecting such businesses to invest in emergency planning is dreamland. It is a massive challenge to get these businesses to honestly admit failings is just one issue and the Government must be sure that any help is actually used where it is needed.
I do not for one minute suggest most of the staff at the front line in care homes are not compassionate but these business are run on a minimum cost basis ( even the LA operated homes) ; they exist for profit and RoI.
We can expect that the deaths attributed to the virus in the Care Home sector will rise significantly. How the Government will diplomatically addresses will be interesting - the issue is that there are a lot of rubbish businesses not saying as it is will be a real challenge and its a fact the media will overlook.
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Old Skier
Tour Winner
"One of the major area of fails was PPE" - unless you were in a hospital were there was no PPE issues.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Indeed. So some trusts get it right but others don't. Is that the fault of the government?
drdel
Tour Rookie
Which, from what my friends in HT management tell me I think, are that the vast majority of Trusts nationwide have not had issues but, unfortunately that's not frightening enough news.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Living in a country where everything is someone else's fault - yes.
Pin-seeker
Well-known member
Not sure how accurate this is,but this kind of thing definitely goes on...imo.
££££
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Those are the type of costs PFI charge hospitals for simple maintainence.
And this is why Twitter is so damaging. These are NHS hospitals built under PFI contracts. What you see is only the tip of the cash cow that is milking the NHS dry. Previous govts had choice, stay in hospital buildings that weren't fit for purpose or build new hospitals. The govt of the day couldn't afford to fund the building so got PFI consortia to build them and lease them back to the NHS.
All bar the clinical depts. are usually owned by the landlord, e.g. Balfour Beatty. If a light bulb needs changing its charged at commercial rates, and then some.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Yes if they do nothing about it in these unprecedented times, the Government should thank and encourage the Trusts that get it right and use them as best practise for those who get it wrong, getting it wrong is costing lives and the Government has the power and authority to sort the useless trusts out.
Unless you’re suggesting the only other option is to allow those Trusts who are getting it wrong to continue to get it wrong while throwing money at them?
D
Deleted member 1740
Guest
Schools are the same.
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
I agree with what you say about sorting it out in these crisis times. But is there not a question of transition time here?
In normal times , it was as described. Government give the money and highly paid Trusts officials do the actual acquiring etc.
Then the pandemic strikes. Unprecedented requirements by everybody, and when I say everybody, I include all health services of all affected Nations.
So it sooner or later becomes apparent that some Trusts have enough PPE and some haven't and so the Government, as you say, should step in.
But they can't wave a wand and it all be right overnight. With all the logistics problems they have in other disciplines, it is inevitable that some will be lacking. I really believe that in the background they are trying to correct the shortcomings. I cannot believe there is a shrug of the shoulders saying "tough" , about the situation.
It needs someone with a hatred of red tape, and a healthy disrespect of "how it is usually done" and an "action this day" mentality.
I said in an earlier post that it shouldn't be too hard to use those attributes where some Trusts have too much and others not enough , to identify those Trusts and so, rob Peter to give to Paul -in hours , let alone days.
And , yes, that is the responsibility of government NOW. It is in their interests to tell us exactly how they are addressing this. And the Country's, and it should be a priority to do so.
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