Orikoru
Tour Winner
There's a link if you do believe in God obviously. And not one if you don't.
bobmac
Major Champion
Another long post.....
People can believe what they want.
I don't stand outside churches on a Sunday morning shouting lies, all lies.
I don't stand on the hight street with placards and a microphone.
Live and let live.
But why don't people see what I see?
Is it me, am I wrong to question God?
When I believed, I was young and only understood what I was being told. And it was all nice.
It was only as I grew older and I read the old testament that things started falling apart.
Even my mum told me not to read it.
There was just too many things wrong in the bible.
You didn't have to go very far............
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
If that was true, why are the heavens 13.8 billion years old and the earth is 4.5 billion years old. I was told 6,000 years old. I argued with my school teacher when she showed me pictures of fossils that were millions of years old.
I was confused.
If she was right, then the bible was wrong....and that couldn't be.
If God was so powerful, why did he need a day of rest?
Why are there instuctions on how to beat your slaves or stone unruly children and homosexuals.
What were the Amalekites up to?
And why didn't the lions and tigers eat everything on the Ark
And was Noah really 900 years old.
Did nobody else have a boat?
When you're 10, these are tough scary questions. Especially the stoning of unruly children to death. That scared me alot.
So the journey of questioning began and it didn't take long to realise it was all just stories. Some good, some awful and it was the awful ones that sent me running.
People can believe what they want.
I don't stand outside churches on a Sunday morning shouting lies, all lies.
I don't stand on the hight street with placards and a microphone.
Live and let live.
But why don't people see what I see?
Is it me, am I wrong to question God?
When I believed, I was young and only understood what I was being told. And it was all nice.
It was only as I grew older and I read the old testament that things started falling apart.
Even my mum told me not to read it.
There was just too many things wrong in the bible.
You didn't have to go very far............
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
If that was true, why are the heavens 13.8 billion years old and the earth is 4.5 billion years old. I was told 6,000 years old. I argued with my school teacher when she showed me pictures of fossils that were millions of years old.
I was confused.
If she was right, then the bible was wrong....and that couldn't be.
If God was so powerful, why did he need a day of rest?
Why are there instuctions on how to beat your slaves or stone unruly children and homosexuals.
What were the Amalekites up to?
And why didn't the lions and tigers eat everything on the Ark
And was Noah really 900 years old.
Did nobody else have a boat?
When you're 10, these are tough scary questions. Especially the stoning of unruly children to death. That scared me alot.
So the journey of questioning began and it didn't take long to realise it was all just stories. Some good, some awful and it was the awful ones that sent me running.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Tragedy and difficult situations happen in life, and nature is nature. In nature things can happen in unexpected ways at unexpected times. My belief is those impacted are no more deserving or undeserving than their neighbour who is not. That is the nature of life - it can strike us randomly.
As others have eloquently posted, how we deal with life's problems is largely down to us each as individuals - but seeking solace, strength and support from whatever source we can find and that we can access. My faith was sorely tested when my wife was diagnosed with a serious breast cancer, and she told me the day after my mum's consultant told me that my mum's brain tumour was inoperable and that she maybe only had 9months to live - having been living a full and fulfilled life only three weeks before. And I struggled to cope.
A friend pointed me to a short book by a rabbi - Harold Kushner - called When Bad Things Happen to Good People. That book helped me through that very difficult time - that, plus the support and guidance of groups of friends who have been through very difficult times or have had very difficult problems, and by accessing a God of their own understanding have managed to cope with the problems and have got through them and live with them.
I don't need to analyse, describe and attempt to rationalise the God of my understanding; I don't need to look at every verse and word in the Old and New Testaments and try and work out exactly what the words mean. However I can, and do, read the Bible (but I don't have to) - and I have come to understand that, for me, it is not 'the Bible' that is the authority - rather it is 'God's word in the Bible' that I should listen for (not to) when I read or listen. That is what I understand by 'reading or listening under the Holy Spirit', and that which leads to my understanding of God's will for me.
And I try as best I can - usually more or less imperfectly - to live in accordance with God's will - not my own. Knowing that I am never alone - and that I can access my God's will for me at any time and in any place, as my God is as close to me as the air that I breathe.
Which might well all sound completely unhinged for those who don't have any faith - but - for me - that's how it works.
Without faith we could not risk the vulnerability of love, and without love we are nothing...(and surely that applies whether your faith is of a religious one or of any sort whatsoever)
As others have eloquently posted, how we deal with life's problems is largely down to us each as individuals - but seeking solace, strength and support from whatever source we can find and that we can access. My faith was sorely tested when my wife was diagnosed with a serious breast cancer, and she told me the day after my mum's consultant told me that my mum's brain tumour was inoperable and that she maybe only had 9months to live - having been living a full and fulfilled life only three weeks before. And I struggled to cope.
A friend pointed me to a short book by a rabbi - Harold Kushner - called When Bad Things Happen to Good People. That book helped me through that very difficult time - that, plus the support and guidance of groups of friends who have been through very difficult times or have had very difficult problems, and by accessing a God of their own understanding have managed to cope with the problems and have got through them and live with them.
I don't need to analyse, describe and attempt to rationalise the God of my understanding; I don't need to look at every verse and word in the Old and New Testaments and try and work out exactly what the words mean. However I can, and do, read the Bible (but I don't have to) - and I have come to understand that, for me, it is not 'the Bible' that is the authority - rather it is 'God's word in the Bible' that I should listen for (not to) when I read or listen. That is what I understand by 'reading or listening under the Holy Spirit', and that which leads to my understanding of God's will for me.
And I try as best I can - usually more or less imperfectly - to live in accordance with God's will - not my own. Knowing that I am never alone - and that I can access my God's will for me at any time and in any place, as my God is as close to me as the air that I breathe.
Which might well all sound completely unhinged for those who don't have any faith - but - for me - that's how it works.
Without faith we could not risk the vulnerability of love, and without love we are nothing...(and surely that applies whether your faith is of a religious one or of any sort whatsoever)
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Robster59
Tour Rookie
I was brought up a Catholic but over the years I've become less and less enchanted with Religion. And this is more to do with what people do in the name of Religion. Whatever that religion is. If you look historically there have been more wars, genocides, etc. in the name of religion (and I appreciate many people use that as just an excuse) than anything else.
My upbringing was Catholic, but my parents taught me that every person is the same regardless of race, creed or colour. My father changed from Protestant to Catholic to marry my mother during the war, although she didn't know about it or even ask him to do it. She carries that letter from the priest with her to this day. That caused trouble amongst my Fathers family but my parents never used it as any form of influence over my choices. I have two brothers. One was a staunch Catholic, the other is Atheist. Neither was thought better or worse as a result.
I guess I see myself more as an Agnostic than an Atheist because I can't say for certain that there is any God or Gods but I can't see any evidence in my eyes that any exist.
I believe Governments should be secular and away from the trappings and restrictions of religious dogma.
I'm from England but now live in Glasgow. I was amazed at the secteranism there is up here. And I know it's a lot less than it used to be but at the end of the day it's two religions travelling different paths to the same God. My Father in Law, a staunch Rangers supporter, still doesn't know I'm a Catholic after 20 years. Why? Because it doesn't matter to me as although it would matter to him and I don't care when he has his occassional anti-Catholic rants (although I've had to hold my missus back on a couple of occassions).
I'm not saying all religion is bad, and if somebody wishes to believe in a God of their choice, that's their decision. Just don't try to force it on me, or make it part of legislation that affects my life, or come knocking at my door to try and sell it to me, or call me names or chastise me just because my beliefs (or lack of them) don't tie in with yours.
I like the Woody Allen quote where he says his first marriage was doomed as his wife was an atheist and he was an agnostic and they couldn't decide what religion not to bring the children up in.
My upbringing was Catholic, but my parents taught me that every person is the same regardless of race, creed or colour. My father changed from Protestant to Catholic to marry my mother during the war, although she didn't know about it or even ask him to do it. She carries that letter from the priest with her to this day. That caused trouble amongst my Fathers family but my parents never used it as any form of influence over my choices. I have two brothers. One was a staunch Catholic, the other is Atheist. Neither was thought better or worse as a result.
I guess I see myself more as an Agnostic than an Atheist because I can't say for certain that there is any God or Gods but I can't see any evidence in my eyes that any exist.
I believe Governments should be secular and away from the trappings and restrictions of religious dogma.
I'm from England but now live in Glasgow. I was amazed at the secteranism there is up here. And I know it's a lot less than it used to be but at the end of the day it's two religions travelling different paths to the same God. My Father in Law, a staunch Rangers supporter, still doesn't know I'm a Catholic after 20 years. Why? Because it doesn't matter to me as although it would matter to him and I don't care when he has his occassional anti-Catholic rants (although I've had to hold my missus back on a couple of occassions).
I'm not saying all religion is bad, and if somebody wishes to believe in a God of their choice, that's their decision. Just don't try to force it on me, or make it part of legislation that affects my life, or come knocking at my door to try and sell it to me, or call me names or chastise me just because my beliefs (or lack of them) don't tie in with yours.
I like the Woody Allen quote where he says his first marriage was doomed as his wife was an atheist and he was an agnostic and they couldn't decide what religion not to bring the children up in.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
On the part I highlighted.
The bible does not mention anywhere that people will go to heaven when they die, this was made up by priests to scare people. It actually makes it quite clear there is no place in heaven for mankind, we are told that when we die we return to dust in the ground.
Wolf
Well-known member
Yet you have made many belittling comments and snide remarks on an open forum about peoples belief and religion, so its not quite live and let live is it. You can't have it both ways stating you're accepting of people with religion and have no issue with it whilst you have made such comments even in this thread alone.
Why do people have to see what you see or alternatively why do you have to see what they see. Everyone is entitled to their own views they don't have to be same as yours or vice versa.
Are you wrong to question god or if there even is a god? Absolutely not wrong at all, we are all entitled to question whatever we want to such is human nature. You have every right to question it and equally come to your own conclusions. The only thing I'd say that needs to be considered when questioning anyone with faith no matter their denomination is that whoever is doing the questioning does so with respect that this person is as equally entitled to their beliefs as you are yours and shouldn't be subject to derision.
Those questions are all very valid in relation to Christianity as are thousands of other questions, each religion has similar flaws that have questions constantly being looked at in depth, its the whole basis of theology to study and question the bible, faith and what does it all mean. Can someone be a good person and not take each of the above questions as gospel of course they can, but can someone have faith and not agree all the above is real and is merely metaphorical . Yes.
You're never going to get an answer to your questions because at best they are theological so all you can be given is someone interpretation of their own belief on the meanings and metaphorical takes on it. After all the bible was written and compiled by man, then translated from a number of ancient languages such as Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. So over the years a whole host of true meaning and story telling will be lost literally in translation and perhaps embellished by its translator. Faith is faith it has no basis on giving you, me or any person of religion definitive answers, what it does give many is hope, guidance and a sense of something more than this mortal plane we inhabit and in some cases especially right now anything that brings people comfort is ok by me, whether thats though faith in a god or fellow mankind is imo irrelevant.
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
1. The first line is a myth, there has been many more wars over land-grabs, race, ethnicity, politics and many other reasons than religion.
Try thinking of how many wars over religion there were and you will start to struggle to get into double figures given 5 minutes, when over the others you can go on and on and generally anything BC wasnt over religion.
2. Great quote.
chrisd
Major Champion
I cant say for sure if it does or not but I cut and paste this from a religious paper "For 2,000 years Christians have taught that no one who refuses to believe in the God of the Bible can go to heaven" so please forgive me if i thought that too, but it was my understanding of many years.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
If God does exist he has a wicked sense of humour creating little old us and the impossibly large universe.
I dont go to mass anymore. My father is a staunch believer, my mother less so. She said she doesnt really know but goes out of habit.
My whole take is that we have been around for such a small amount of time. Not even a footnote In the earth's history. We have evolved from apes and as shown by this pandemic, could be wiped from the face of the earth in the time in takes to pose for a selfie and not see it coming. Do we, as a species, have an inflated sense of importance?
I dont go to mass anymore. My father is a staunch believer, my mother less so. She said she doesnt really know but goes out of habit.
My whole take is that we have been around for such a small amount of time. Not even a footnote In the earth's history. We have evolved from apes and as shown by this pandemic, could be wiped from the face of the earth in the time in takes to pose for a selfie and not see it coming. Do we, as a species, have an inflated sense of importance?
drdel
Tour Rookie
Do Apes, Dolphins, Elephants, Crows and other 'intelligent' life forms need to 'believe' in a God or trust in instinct: perhaps it is just arrogant humans that enjoy the notion and entitlement of life after death?
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
Perhaps not "arrogant" but more looking for some "comfort" in their life for after we have gone.
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
I agree with almost every word you've written .certainley the most important parts. I think you maybe are a bit harsh on saying Bobmac is making snide remarks etc, but then we all get it wrong from time to time.
I also don't disagree with a word written in posts 64 -and 66.
If I may , I will give my take on this question, as briefly as possible.
Anyone can believe what they want ( on this question)so long as there is no implementaction of that belief which hurts other people's right to disagree.
I am agnostic. I don't know if God exists or not.. If I had to bet, I'd bet not.
I ask myself, -If he exists
1. Why did he create this world and the Universe? As I understand it ,most if not all ,religions agree that God existed before anything else. That being the case, there must have been a point when he decided to change things.
See also question 3
2. Most religions agree that God is omnipotent. Which means he can do or cause anything over and beyond laws of physics etc. Indeed, he created everything- and he can see everything in the future. So, when he was designing the universe, every facet was and would be as he wanted, and he would see the results and consequences of everything he designed and created. If he saw the awful things that have and are happening, the pain and suffering that now exists, why go ahead with the design and let it happen?
There are designers and engineers amongst us, would you build and bring into use something you designed ,if you were able to look ahead and see serious flaws etc?
3. If the wish and objective were for us to live in eternity in heaven, why not design the universe so that we were there from the start, without all the necessity for sin and forgiveness and redemption etc, and all the pain that that process involves?
These are the questions I cannot resolve to allow me to believe.
That doesn't mean that I don't have a hope that when I die, that there is only oblivion and nothing else. It would be nice to be wrong.?
I am not expecting anyone to answer them etc. Like others, I have just given my take on the subject, and I'll leave it like that.
Good wishes to all
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Well - maybe that just ain't necessarily so.
The virus is a 'creation' of nature; that it has ended up in the human population is, you could argue, not nature's fault. How humanity has dealt with it subsequent to it getting into the human population is down to choices and decisions made by individuals or groups. That we amongst most if not all creatures know the difference, and have the ability to choose, between right and wrong as opposed to relying upon instinct is what makes us human. There is an ethical and moral dimension to our decision making that is largely absent from all other living creatures.
BTW - What's in the Bible is that the serpent deceives Eve into eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... and she passes the apple from that tree to Adam - and from that point humanity knows the difference between right and wrong in a way that is absent from all other creatures created before Adam and Eve.
IMO it's all allegorical of course...
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SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
If you dont believe in God then you would not expect these creatures to believe in one. If you believe in God and what the Bible tells us then you should understand that creatures were not intended to have the same knowledge as Man. I would repeat that the Bible does not say we have a life after death or a place in heaven, only that at a day of reckoning some will be given an afterlife on earth.
Wolf
Well-known member
ANOTHER LONG ONE SORRY
To your actual questsions..
1. Why did he create it? For a long time that's probably been the most unanswerable question, theologists may have their own take on it but all we know from the books is the opening line "in the beginning God created the heaven and earth". There is nothing documented or known before the opening line and probably why many simply refer to him doing so because it was his will. Probably why scientists in places like Cerne are creating things like the god particle to disprove the theory of god v science. Personally I think its a question we can never know the answer to . If people choose to believe it was the will of god that's their choice if others take the science facts then again no reason to disprove the theory behind the science but even the science cannot factually prove where it all began, but only show a possible cause as to what they think happened and so round the circle goes for science v creationism.
2. I would guess most faiths and theologist would answer this somewhere along the lines of where SR has already answered in that he wasn't content with how he populated the earth so then made Adam & eve in his own image (or at least his image of what he thought man to be) and once they broke their covenant he left man and woman the challenge of existing in the world forever without his intervention. Thus in any quarrel mankind has created for themselves he hasn't stepped in and stopped things or altered their course. Effectively allowing his test to be eternally carried out until man either destroys himself or the planet, both of which as a race we are very good at. You mention engineers and designers lets look at that as well from another angle we both know engineers and designers do exactly what you mention they wouldn't do, after all they created the A Bomb, nuclear technology, weapons etc that have one purpose and that is to cause destruction and devastation so whether we believe in a god or not we know all forms of creators are capable of designing and developing things purely caused to bring about the effective "end of days"
3. I think it was SR also answered this earlier it was never intended for man to live eternal in heaven as a species we are merely meant to return to the dust. It was priests who made that up to make people behave better and control the masses with fear of eternal damnation.
Ironically the 3 questions you nor I, or possibly anyone can answer definitively are the very 3 that probably hold the most basis for anyone of any faith. They cannot answer them but have faith these things were done for a reason and ultimately they believe in living their life right in the eyes of "god" whatever their faith is they will have them answered at their own end of days and will have solace and comfort knowing that perhaps this isn't all there is.
Only one way any of us will find the definitive answer and I hope thats a long way off for all of us yet.
I think thats a really well thought out post and asks some interesting questions. As per my comment regarding Bob making snide comments I stand by that completely as its evident in many threads over time not just this one but that's not what is important here or why I responded initially was more to highlight the points made above . But we do all get things wrong as we are only human after all.
To your actual questsions..
1. Why did he create it? For a long time that's probably been the most unanswerable question, theologists may have their own take on it but all we know from the books is the opening line "in the beginning God created the heaven and earth". There is nothing documented or known before the opening line and probably why many simply refer to him doing so because it was his will. Probably why scientists in places like Cerne are creating things like the god particle to disprove the theory of god v science. Personally I think its a question we can never know the answer to . If people choose to believe it was the will of god that's their choice if others take the science facts then again no reason to disprove the theory behind the science but even the science cannot factually prove where it all began, but only show a possible cause as to what they think happened and so round the circle goes for science v creationism.
2. I would guess most faiths and theologist would answer this somewhere along the lines of where SR has already answered in that he wasn't content with how he populated the earth so then made Adam & eve in his own image (or at least his image of what he thought man to be) and once they broke their covenant he left man and woman the challenge of existing in the world forever without his intervention. Thus in any quarrel mankind has created for themselves he hasn't stepped in and stopped things or altered their course. Effectively allowing his test to be eternally carried out until man either destroys himself or the planet, both of which as a race we are very good at. You mention engineers and designers lets look at that as well from another angle we both know engineers and designers do exactly what you mention they wouldn't do, after all they created the A Bomb, nuclear technology, weapons etc that have one purpose and that is to cause destruction and devastation so whether we believe in a god or not we know all forms of creators are capable of designing and developing things purely caused to bring about the effective "end of days"
3. I think it was SR also answered this earlier it was never intended for man to live eternal in heaven as a species we are merely meant to return to the dust. It was priests who made that up to make people behave better and control the masses with fear of eternal damnation.
Ironically the 3 questions you nor I, or possibly anyone can answer definitively are the very 3 that probably hold the most basis for anyone of any faith. They cannot answer them but have faith these things were done for a reason and ultimately they believe in living their life right in the eyes of "god" whatever their faith is they will have them answered at their own end of days and will have solace and comfort knowing that perhaps this isn't all there is.
Only one way any of us will find the definitive answer and I hope thats a long way off for all of us yet.
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Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
Down to Cat.1 now, are we?
Hanging in there now thanks to corona virus. The way I was hitting it over winter 6 wont be too far away again.
SatchFan
Q-School Graduate
This is all the evidence I need -
Crow
Crow Person
Apologies as I've not read most of this thread but it never ceases to amaze me the care that people take when composing posts for threads on religion (and the length of the posts), especially as most seem to lean towards the atheist or agnostic point of view.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
From a facebook post
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