Coronavirus and Religion Discuss

[USER1999]

I'm not the one who believes in talking snakes, the global flood and the earth is 6,000 years old, like I was taught.
If there is a God then he will know what will convince me he is real. So far, nothing.

Outside of the USofA, and other extreme religious areas, I am not sure anyone believes in the above.

Nothing can convince anyone god is real. It's a belief based religion. You either believe, or you don't. If anyone knew, it wouldn't be a matter of belief anymore.

 

[USER1999]

My personnal belief is that by the time I wake up tomorrow, this will be locked again.

 

[bobmac]

My personnal belief is that by the time I wake up tomorrow, this will be locked again.

I hope not because I'm off to bed now

 

[Hobbit]

That's my biggest problem.
If God wrote it on your heart to be good then why do non believers do good things?
And why do church folk do bad things?

I was brought up to believe in God and the bible and I did and I listened to all the good stuff.
Then I discovered the 10 commandments were in the old testament.
When I asked, I was told not to read the old testament
So of course I did.
Holy moly
Wow, was I in for a shock.
So I have to disagree that it is a good moral lesson on how to behave.
I was told never to judge or question the bible, it's all true.
So you shouldn't cherry pick the nice fluffy bits and ignore the slaying, the stoning and the slavery.
It's all or nothing.

Don't get me wrong, there's lots of good stuff in the bible but there is also some serious rubbish.

Finally, if you look up the word 'Godless' in the dictionary, you get
wicked, evil, sinful.
Is that true if you don't believe?
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/godless

Just a few of my many problems with the Bible

As it appears that Phil isn't going to let the thread degenerate I'll give my ignorant opinions.

The bible was written by humans, and is a human interpretation. Are humans always right? Do humans see things with a bias? When the bible was translated from x language to y language to z language, what got changed in the translation? Hell, I know from trying to translate Spanish into English its extremely difficult.
Everyone takes from religion their own interpretation. Many will be close but other might differ but there are core principles in there.

Do I believe the Old Testament, or the New one for that matter verbatim? No, an awful lot of it is a crock, in my opinion. In that it would appear that we agree. Maybe your interpretation is its half empty, and for me its half full. In both cases the volume is the same.

The question you posed earlier, why doesn't God step in? Why does God let so many bad things happen? Why do good people die? That's a question that believers in all faiths have probably been asking since Adam left the garden. But to take it to a personal level, and how you posed it, how do I keep my faith? Wow! The million dollar question.

My rationale, and it is only my rationale, unless theologians have come up with something similar; as I grew up my parents gave me the tools to make my own choices, and when they did interfere I wasn't best chuffed. I believe that God has given the human race the ability to create the solutions it needs to the problems before it. Quite how well and how quickly that is achieved is down to 'us.' Should God step in when bad things are about to happen to good people? Can I have it both ways, a totally unfettered life and the big guy in the sky stepping in when he feels like it?

Do I pray for everyone etc etc? No, and I never pray for me either. When something bad happens I pray that those that are gone are looked after and those that are left behind are comforted. And where I can I will give anyone a leg up. Does life have to be anymore complicated.

Beyond all of that I haven't got a clue. I could spend hours twisting my head inside out, or I can chose an element of acceptance and contentment. Am I living in cloud cuckoo land? I actually don't care. All I hope for is to be content, and if cuckoo land brings contentment so be it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I'm not the one who believes in talking snakes, the global flood and the earth is 6,000 years old, like I was taught.
If there is a God then he will know what will convince me he is real. So far, nothing.

But as stated on the other thread, you take the extreme view and want convincing, why can’t you be strong enough in your own mind to just accept to you, he/it/they don’t exist and get on with your life.

It’s almost as if you want to believe, but are afraid.

Believe in whatever helps you best in your life, you don’t need anyone on here to prove it to you.

Just be the best person you can be.

 

[Liverbirdie]

I'm not the one who believes in talking snakes, the global flood and the earth is 6,000 years old, like I was taught.
If there is a God then he will know what will convince me he is real. So far, nothing.

So you want God to deliver individual messages to everyone on the globe....unless your a flat earth society member, of course.

So now you want it from God direct, not a forummer, your wants have gone up exponentially.

You havent asked which God you want yet, either, so do you want all of them to get in touch and then maybe you can make a choice, or should their be a queuing system for you, maybe like Tescoes have at the deli.

Lets face it you have no interest in people's answers, unless its just to take the pee out of, are you?

Goodnight.

Now I lay me down to sleep.......come on, all together now......

 

[SocketRocket]

The question is often put that if there is such a thing as a God that loves mankind then how can he allow such bad things to happen on Earth? It's a very good question.

My understanding of why this should be so is explained in Genesis. We are told how God created the heavens and earth and then populated the earth with living things but was not content with what he had created so he created Man in his own image, then from man he created Woman. He then made a paradise for them to live in (Eden) so they wanted for nothing. (Apologies if this is a a bit detailed and long) The way I understand it was that because they were of his own image they knew right from wrong. When creating this paradise he also created temptation and sin but forbid them from taking the knowledge of sin (I wont go into the detail of the apple and serpent)

When Adam and Eve decided to break their covenant with God and decided they could live their lives without his law and guidance he cast them out into the world and set a challenge to see if Man and Woman could exist in the world for ever without his control. To do this he has to leave us to live without his intervention.

The New testament shows how he has given us a second chance to make things good and through the allegorical stories and prophesies it gives us clues of the things that will happen on the path we are travelling.

I dont expect non believers to accept this as we all have the ability to believe what we want, I also dont denounce people who have other views and beliefs, again we are free to live our lives as we see fit.

Hopefully some may find this interesting or something they can discuss. Hopefully it will not be subject to derision but if it is then I do not wish to comment further in that vein.

 

[harpo_72]

I don’t suppose any argument on either side is particularly water tight ... but I quite like the Quaker out look and general honesty. Anyway be kind and enjoy each other’s company ( even if it’s only virtual).

 

[Fish]

I don’t think any god ( if indeed there is one, or more) factored in the. Chinese Communist Party and the evil they have produced in their labs and set upon the world.

 

[bobmac]

Thanks for all the replies, very interesting.
Food for thought

 

[PhilTheFragger]

My view:- long post

I was bought up in a “liberal” Methodist family, went to Sunday school from age 5, my whole childhood outside school was based around the church, Cubs, Scouts, Youth Club, until I was about 16, then I stopped going.

Fast forward 20 years, moved to a new village, 2 young kids, one a couple of months old, everything “early years” was church based, parent & toddler groups, nursery, a C of E primary school, and a thriving local church which was very family oriented , joined primarily to meet new people in the village and to get the kids into nursery.

It felt good, the collective power when good people come together is strong, uplifting and it felt like part of the community

I joined a house group and did the Alpha Course which explored many of Bobs questions.

The main issue Bob has is the lack of Gods interventions when bad things happen, this was explained by the “gift” of free will which allows us to make mistakes, but we will be forgiven our sins and gain eternal life in heaven.

It’s a promise that no matter how bad it gets on earth, it will be ok.

Part of the Alpha Course is a weekend retreat in a group , I woke up early on the Sunday morning , went for a stroll around the gardens, found myself in the chapel and prayed and asked god for a sign , proof if you like, nothing happened.

In 2006 I had a health issue which involved a 2 week stay in hospital and then a 3 month wait for a back operation, during which time, nobody from the church visited or phoned or wondered why Phil wasn’t going any more.

I felt abandoned, but got on with it. It soon became clear that I could live quite happily without the church,

As many of you know, I had a very close chat with The Reaper a couple of years ago, needed a life saving operation and when I asked my chances, it was 50/50
I needed resuscitating twice on the slab and needed 23 units of blood in a 12 hour period.

I did not feel that I was in Gods hands, I was in the hands of the surgeons and the nurses and the ICU.

All of this has made me realise that there isn’t a god. We have one life, so live it.

Religion was invented by the educated priests to keep the uneducated masses under control, fire & brimstone, eternal damnation etc, for hundreds of years in this country it was written in Latin to avoid popular understanding, then it was translated and people started to question parts of it.

The Bible itself is a collection of stories put together by a committee, it is a very good guide for living, if you follow the 10 commandments you will live a good life.

I still have many friends who are churched, and I have no problem with anyone having a faith, and will uphold their right to express that faith

It’s just not something I believe in

 

[chrisd]

I an a confirmed atheist but generally believe in living a Christian type lifestyle, that is "treat others as you expect them to treat you" " dont do wrong unto others". There are a huge number of very diverse ""Gods" out there according to the thousands of different religions, so, if let's say we believe that God made the earth in .......... etc etc, then, unless others are all praying to the same God but in a different way, and seeing God in a different guise, then, for me God doesn't exist at all because Christianity effectively claims the one and only God as theirs .

The bible then brings up so many issues, if you dont believe in God you cant go to heaven BUT if you do wrong but repent your sins you can - so, a person not leading a Christian lifestyle, commiting terrible sins can go to heaven but a person leading an exemplary lifestyle cannot just because they've been foolish enough not to believe, but been wrong in that one matter - not very fair!

Theres no doubt in my mind that religion is simply control of the masses, usually for the fortune of those doing the controlling!

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Post of the year Fragger - awesome and from the heart.

 

[Liverbirdie]

My view:- long post

I was bought up in a “liberal” Methodist family, went to Sunday school from age 5, my whole childhood outside school was based around the church, Cubs, Scouts, Youth Club, until I was about 16, then I stopped going.

Fast forward 20 years, moved to a new village, 2 young kids, one a couple of months old, everything “early years” was church based, parent & toddler groups, nursery, a C of E primary school, and a thriving local church which was very family oriented , joined primarily to meet new people in the village and to get the kids into nursery.

It felt good, the collective power when good people come together is strong, uplifting and it felt like part of the community

I joined a house group and did the Alpha Course which explored many of Bobs questions.

The main issue Bob has is the lack of Gods interventions when bad things happen, this was explained by the “gift” of free will which allows us to make mistakes, but we will be forgiven our sins and gain eternal life in heaven.

It’s a promise that no matter how bad it gets on earth, it will be ok.

Part of the Alpha Course is a weekend retreat in a group , I woke up early on the Sunday morning , went for a stroll around the gardens, found myself in the chapel and prayed and asked god for a sign , proof if you like, nothing happened.

In 2006 I had a health issue which involved a 2 week stay in hospital and then a 3 month wait for a back operation, during which time, nobody from the church visited or phoned or wondered why Phil wasn’t going any more.

I felt abandoned, but got on with it. It soon became clear that I could live quite happily without the church,

As many of you know, I had a very close chat with The Reaper a couple of years ago, needed a life saving operation and when I asked my chances, it was 50/50
I needed resuscitating twice on the slab and needed 23 units of blood in a 12 hour period.

I did not feel that I was in Gods hands, I was in the hands of the surgeons and the nurses and the ICU.

All of this has made me realise that there isn’t a god. We have one life, so live it.

Religion was invented by the educated priests to keep the uneducated masses under control, fire & brimstone, eternal damnation etc, for hundreds of years in this country it was written in Latin to avoid popular understanding, then it was translated and people started to question parts of it.

The Bible itself is a collection of stories put together by a committee, it is a very good guide for living, if you follow the 10 commandments you will live a good life.

I still have many friends who are churched, and I have no problem with anyone having a faith, and will uphold their right to express that faith

It’s just not something I believe in

A good balanced view of both sides of the divide.

Now, lets hear about the "gap decades", all the cocaine, acid house parties and broken hearts all over the home counties.......

 

[bobmac]

It felt good, the collective power when good people come together is strong, uplifting and it felt like part of the community

That's something the church does well as long as you believe what they believe

The main issue Bob has is the lack of Gods interventions when bad things happen, this was explained by the “gift” of free will which allows us to make mistakes, but we will be forgiven our sins and gain eternal life in heaven.

There is that, but also why do people still believe that God could fix things but chooses not to.

I felt abandoned, but got on with it. It soon became clear that I could live quite happily without the church,

Big question....are you happier now or were you happier when you believed?
When I was young I was terrified the whole time I was going to burn in hell for the smallest sin. (Get them while they're young)

I did not feel that I was in Gods hands, I was in the hands of the surgeons and the nurses and the ICU.

All of this has made me realise that there isn’t a god. We have one life, so live it.

Really pleased to read that. So many times we hear about miracles and the surgeons never even get a thank you.

Religion was invented by the educated priests to keep the uneducated masses under control, fire & brimstone, eternal damnation etc, for hundreds of years in this country it was written in Latin to avoid popular understanding, then it was translated and people started to question parts of it.

The Bible itself is a collection of stories put together by a committee, it is a very good guide for living, if you follow the 10 commandments you will live a good life.

I also have no problem with people having faith, I just don't understand why.
If 2 billion christians can't be wrong, that means 1.8 billion muslims are wrong and 1.1 billion hindus are wrong.

Every time science solves a problem (how old the earth/universe is, where does lightning/rainbows come from, evolution or creation, the world goes round the sun etc etc) the answer is never God did it.
Scientists may never know how/where/when it all started but they aren't afraid to admit they don't know, but they will keep looking.
Religion claims to know that God did it. Brilliant, no need to think any more, take the rest of the day off.

Maybe I will never get a sign from God but I'll carry on being happy and nice to people in this life because it's the only life I get.

 

[Wolf]

Apologies to anyone that may get bored reading a long post ?

That's something the church does well as long as you believe what they believe

What's so wrong with that if it gives people a place to feel like they belong and have found somewhere with like minded people where they can be happy. Better to have people amongst others with a sense of community than perhaps being alone with nobody to turn to for help, doesn't mean we all have to be part of that community if we have others outside of that to provide that network. Many people don't have the support they need in this world and if a church or a similar non religious group can provide that then imo that's a good thing for people.

There is that, but also why do people still believe that God could fix things but chooses not to.

You've been given the answer to this on many threads many times but seemingly don't like the answer so refuse to accept it. @SocketRocket has also answered in this thread alone this very question, but you've asked it again because you refuse to acknowledge the answer as suitable to you. You will never get the answer you want because you're asking a question for sake of regurgitation until you get what you want. Man has freedom of choice to do good or bad if a God then intervened that would remove freedom of choice and you'd then have an issue with that stating man doesn't have freewill so God is interfering.

Big question....are you happier now or were you happier when you believed?
When I was young I was terrified the whole time I was going to burn in hell for the smallest sin. (Get them while they're young)

From your posts it suggests you had a terrible experience when younger so makes your intolerance towards the possibility of there being a god understandable.

pleased to read that. So many times we hear about miracles and the surgeons never even get a thank you.

That's a very blinkered view Bob, surgeons the world over have thousands of patients that thank them in person at the bedside and in writing by way of cards just because you don't see or hear them doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just because someone of faith may also thank God doesn't mean they haven't thanked the caregiver.

I also have no problem with people having faith, I just don't understand why.
If 2 billion christians can't be wrong, that means 1.8 billion muslims are wrong and 1.1 billion hindus are wrong.

Your many posts often suggest the opposite and that you do have an issue with people having faith, throughout your reply to Fragger alone you have little snipes about getting them young, it's only ok if you believe what they believe etc not to mention numerous posts on other threads at times. If you have no issue with it why make the little digs? By all means question belief systems but to have the digs suggest you do have a problem with it.

As for whose right and wrong, who is to say any of them are right or wrong. That in itself is the the true definition of faith, it isn't about telling someone you're right or they're wrong. It's about having faith in your own beliefs and living your life according to that.

There are many Theologist from the varying denominations of Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism etc that believe Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah or whichever name you see God by are actually one and the same being but interpreted in different ways in their scripture and beliefs. Effectively nobody is right and nobody is wrong they just believe in different ways.

As for Hinduism again its a completely different belief system which is more akin to Buddhism, Jainism more based on Dharma and scripture of how to live rather than a gods will. There's is a classic example of how man can use things to twist images for generations. In Hindu culture the word Swastika actually means good fortune, the symbol of it represents good luck. Yet now the majority of western culture associates it with Nazis and evil acts. As a result many Hindus can't display something thats good to them because man twisted it.

Every time science solves a problem (how old the earth/universe is, where does lightning/rainbows come from, evolution or creation, the world goes round the sun etc etc) the answer is never God did it.
Scientists may never know how/where/when it all started but they aren't afraid to admit they don't know, but they will keep looking.
Religion claims to know that God did it. Brilliant, no need to think any more, take the rest of the day off.

Maybe I will never get a sign from God but I'll carry on being happy and nice to people in this life because it's the only life I get.

Again another twist to suit your agenda against faith you say you have no issue with. When scientific break through are made they are journaled for the world to see and significant ones are reported by press World wide as with Covid19 once a cure or vaccine is found scientist and governments will be commended everywhere. But then a priest will thank god but that's all you choose to see ignoring all that's been published before it.

You say you've no problem but refuse to accept without physical proof or a individual sign well that alone proves you don't get it, faith is not fact. It cannot be proven and nobody has to prove anything to you, me or anyone. Faith is merely belief in something that can't be seen or proven but you still believe its there regardless of scepticism. In many ways its a bit like trust in our partners or friends, we can't see trust but we believe they will do good by us and not hurt us.

Bob none of this is a dig at you btw its merely answering each point you raised. ??

 

[Liverbirdie]

Brilliant, and well thought out view from wolf.

Bob, I couldnt do as well balanced an argument as what he has done, as religion is only a very small part of my life, but 2 things to consider:-

1. You, once believed. So how can you question the intelligence/naivety/God knows what else, why others do?

2. Is the "goodness/evil" of man any better than God's?

If you think that only good and mundane should happen on this earth, we are all rich, play Augusta everyday, never get sick and never die you believe in that, if you want. Sadly real life means that very good things happen as well as very bad. Humans seem to have more of an effect on that as time goes on, it seems, with technical advancements. As well as the good side of these developments, we have also seen nuclear proliferation, concentration camps and easier and more efficient ways of killing each other including nurturing biological weapons.....which neatly seems to square the circle.

I'm sure some of the Nazi doctors who committed many experiments where also surgeons in their day.

 

[Orikoru]

Not really related to Coronovirus but my own views on religion. Personally I'm not religious, I don't like to say I categorically don't believe in God because none of us truly knows - and I actually find the alternative quite scary if truth be told - but I do find it very hard to believe in a God, I find it quite implausible. I do chuckle along to atheist comedians like Ricky Gervais and find myself agreeing with the points they make about it, but personally I try and never belittle someone for having a belief, because if that helps them in their daily life then all power to them. I am actually envious of people that do have that, because as I say, I find the alternative quite scary, but I can't force myself to believe in something that feels implausible to my analytical brain. Unfortunately.

Obviously when it comes to wars and people being killed over religion then that's a whole other kettle of fish, and completely ridiculous. And I have no time for people who preach their religion at others, trying to convert them, because there is nothing someone can say that would convince me 100% that there is a god.

 

[Foxholer]

...
I'd love to believe in god again but there is just so much contradiction with science and what's in the bible

Then don't take everything in the Bible as absolute fact, nor 'literally' - especially the story of the Creation. There are lots of moral codes and lessons to be found in the Old Testament, but much of Genesis is just invented twaddle - imo of course. The New Testament is a completely different beast and it's this 'section' that, at least to me, is the most important (and for the various 'flavours' of the Christian faith) because the texts are, relatively, 'current'. I still categorise some of it's contents (Revelations particularly) as in the same 'twaddle' category as Genesis.

Now Churches (sects, flavours of Christianity or other Religions) are a whole different topic! Far too much hypocrisy involved in most of them for my taste!

 

[drdel]

The thread title infers a relationship between two unrelated matters. One is biological fact the other is a belief system where a person either believes in a divine 'being' or you don't.

Most philosophers contend that the religious doctrines were developed and grew as mechanisms to control and structure society and maintain social order.