Club sanctions for Non-return of Competition Score card & PSI entry

[Coffey]

I am gobsmacked that clubs out there are not giving .1 for a non return of card.

 

[rulefan]

I am gobsmacked that clubs out there are not giving .1 for a non return of card.

This could be to prevent/discourage the player from 'building a handicap' as mentioned in the CONGU text.

 

[Lump]

I know of one such club that doesn’t hand out 0.1 if you don’t put your card in.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Of course there is, its fundamental!

Failure to return a card is rule 6-6b and results in the penalty of DQ.

Current CONGU Rule 17.1 (c) covers that, and Appendix P gives the exceptions (which include failure to sign, and delay in returning, but not failure to return - for obvious reasons!)

Finally you reference DISQUALIFIED SCORES in the definitions which tells you

Disqualified Score
A Disqualified Score for handicap purposes is any score returned in a Qualifying Competition, or as a Supplementary Score, when the player has been disqualified by the Committee from the competition or stipulated round for a breach of the Rules of Golf. Depending upon the nature of
the breach, the score, or adjusted score under Clause 19, may be within the Buffer Zone or qualify for a handicap reduction. Otherwise an increase in Exact Handicap of 0.1 is applied -see Appendix P.

https://www.golfnet.ie/sites/Conten...GUI/Links/CONGU Handicapping- Non Returns.pdf

This states a committee can look sympathetically on the person not returning a card in a comp, therefore if the committee has discretion it can’t be automatic.

 

[duncan mackie]

https://www.golfnet.ie/sites/Conten...GUI/Links/CONGU Handicapping- Non Returns.pdf

This states a committee can look sympathetically on the person not returning a card in a comp, therefore if the committee has discretion it can’t be automatic.

See posts #55/#56 and others on this thread - already covered.

The fact is that it's the default position, and those are the rules as written by CONGU that support that position.

Which was the question posed.

All handicap software will automatically process the correctly entered information in line with those rules; and apply a 0.1 increase.

Any other course of action requires the handicap commitee to make an intervention. Such a course of action should be minuted with reasons

 

[Coffey]

This could be to prevent/discourage the player from 'building a handicap' as mentioned in the CONGU text.

Yeah understand that, but if i wanted to build a handicap i could just blob the last 4 holes and chuck it in for my .1.

Surely there are more reasons to issue a .1 for a non return than there are against

 

[duncan mackie]

Yeah understand that, but if i wanted to build a handicap i could just blob the last 4 holes and chuck it in for my .1.

Surely there are more reasons to issue a .1 for a non return than there are against

Yes there are, and we certainly seem to be overly focused on those here at the moment.

One consideration in this specific respect is that not all clubs run their Q comps to the same model - for example there are clubs who run Q comps most days and have no entry fee associated with the competition. There have been more concerns about players signing in for 0.1 in such situations than where there are 2 comps a month with entry fees! In the latter situation supplementals are easier and cheaper!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

See posts #55/#56 and others on this thread - already covered.

The fact is that it's the default position, and those are the rules as written by CONGU that support that position.

Which was the question posed.

All handicap software will automatically process the correctly entered information in line with those rules; and apply a 0.1 increase.

Any other course of action requires the handicap commitee to make an intervention. Such a course of action should be minuted with reasons

The question I answered was to Jim who, imo, (I maybe wrong) is being pedantic and asking for an actual rule.
I understand what the software does, but every club signs in on a system, we enter in the pro shop on a sheet and enter our scores afterwards into the computer.

 

[duncan mackie]

The question I answered was to Jim who, imo, (I maybe wrong) is being pedantic and asking for an actual rule.

And he's now been given the relevant rule...so should be happy either way.

 

[jim8flog]

Of course there is, its fundamental!

Failure to return a card is rule 6-6b and results in the penalty of DQ.

Current CONGU Rule 17.1 (c) covers that, and Appendix P gives the exceptions (which include failure to sign, and delay in returning, but not failure to return - for obvious reasons!)

Finally you reference DISQUALIFIED SCORES in the definitions which tells you

Disqualified Score
A Disqualified Score for handicap purposes is any score returned in a Qualifying Competition, or as a Supplementary Score, when the player has been disqualified by the Committee from the competition or stipulated round for a breach of the Rules of Golf. Depending upon the nature of
the breach, the score, or adjusted score under Clause 19, may be within the Buffer Zone or qualify for a handicap reduction. Otherwise an increase in Exact Handicap of 0.1 is applied -see Appendix P.

The important point about 17.1 is that is says scores 'returned' but the score has not been returned because the card was not returned

Appendix P only covers a card which has returned with undue delay (6.6b).

I do see it is possible for the committee to DQ the player and the score not to be acceptable under 33.7

I know this is being pedantic but part of my brief is to ensure the club abides by CONGU rules and my appointment only coincided with the release of he new UHS manual so I have always worked form that.

I know many of you have done a similar thing for your club for years but are you doing it because you have always given a 0.1 increase and not because it is in the manual?

 

[patricks148]

The important point about 17.1 is that is says scores 'returned' but the score has not been returned because the card was not returned

Appendix P only covers a card which has returned with undue delay (6.6b).

I do see it is possible for the committee to DQ the player and the score not to be acceptable under 33.7

I know this is being pedantic but part of my brief is to ensure the club abides by CONGU rules and my appointment only coincided with the release of he new UHS manual so I have always worked form that.

I know many of you have done a similar thing for your club for years but are you doing it because you have always given a 0.1 increase and not because it is in the manual?

so you think its perfectly acceptable to enter a comp play sheer hite and just not return the card so you don't get 0.1 then?

 

[duncan mackie]

The important point about 17.1 is that is says scores 'returned' but the score has not been returned because the card was not returned

Appendix P only covers a card which has returned with undue delay (6.6b).

I do see it is possible for the committee to DQ the player and the score not to be acceptable under 33.7

I know this is being pedantic but part of my brief is to ensure the club abides by CONGU rules and my appointment only coincided with the release of he new UHS manual so I have always worked form that.

I know many of you have done a similar thing for your club for years but are you doing it because you have always given a 0.1 increase and not because it is in the manual?

You are going beyond pedantic.

You don't need to DQ the player under 33.7 - he is disqualified under 6-6b for failing to return a scorecard.

Having been DQ, Under CONGU you reference Appendix P which provides for the exceptions - see definition of Disqualified Scores in the CONGU manual. As you have noted there are 2 exceptions under 6-6b in appendix P and neither apply here.

All of which has already been posted, so I apologise for repeating. I won't do it again.

 

[jim8flog]

so you think its perfectly acceptable to enter a comp play sheer hite and just not return the card so you don't get 0.1 then?

I do not think it is acceptable for anybody to not return a card except in very exceptional circumstances.

It is what happens afterwards that I was interested in. At our club they go on the 'naughty list' and we apply CONGU decision 1 for failing to complete our clubs requirements for entry in to a competition.

My last comment on the subject. If the Area Authority say we have got it wrong we will do what they ask.

 

[duncan mackie]

I do not think it is acceptable for anybody to not return a card except in very exceptional circumstances.

It is what happens afterwards that I was interested in. At our club they go on the 'naughty list' and we apply CONGU decision 1 for failing to complete our clubs requirements for entry in to a competition.

1n deals with entry; which is required prior to playing not afterwards.

It makes the blindly obvious statement that if someone hasn't entered the competition they can't have a score for handicap purposes - in exactly the same way that a player is required to sign into a supplemental system before he/she goes out to play.

So you are absolutely right not to make any handicap adjustment in respect of a player who didn't enter the competition before they went out to play.

100%.