Club sanctions for Non-return of Competition Score card & PSI entry

[2blue]

Yeah I agree not entering into the PSI is lazy, but is there anything Competitively a club can actually do? You can’t DQ someone as long as they hand their card in can you?

Correct... can't DQ... but sanctions can be applied.
Without electronic sign-in it means you have to print-out a 'provisional Result-sheet' then check each card against it to see who's missing (10mins to 30mins work + unnecessary printing) & of course having already done this procedure once already checking the cards against who's signed into the Comp!!!
I didn't join the H/Cap team to carry out unnecessary Admin duties..... rather to have a say in the way H/Capping is implemented etc ….. & I guess this discussion on sanctions is part of that..... may make life easier for those volunteers that follow as well helping/educating the miscreants who get pigged of with the Club being 'overly officious' in this matter & take their business elsewhere. ……. think you maybe seeing where I may be going with this. :ears: :blah::ears:

 

[Grant85]

I always do my absolute best to avoid an NR, even when an embarrassing score awaits. You don't get scratch players and the like doing that though as they're too embarrassed. I've even heard them trying to claim a double bogey when they tell the rest of the bar their score later.

I played with a guy who made a point of never NRing. Bit of an eccentric chap, around an 18 handicapper and could play some ridiculously good shots at times.

Heard a rumour he had taken 24 shots to get out of a bunker on a Par 3 in one medal. 'Nonsense' we all thought. 'You would just pick it up'.

Sure enough, he admitted to it, saying 'I just hate putting in No Return'.

I'm sure that would have held up the course.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why would people be punished for NR’s ?

We have no sanctions - if you don’t submit your card it’s a DQ simple as that and if it’s not in the PSI it’s more than likely a one off , if someone is regularly not putting into the PSI i used to just ask why and ask politely if he would enter it to help the Comp committee when closing the Comp - normally works

No sanctions for NRs. Who is to know why you'd NR - could be anything - from yes 'can't be bothered any more more' to much more personal issues - some could be physical but often they can be mental - too much on mind - maybe difficult upsetting stuff. Who's to know and who has the right to pass judgement on your reasons....nobody that's who. The player goes up 0.1 and CSS takes the NR into account - nobody else is affected.

 

[Coffey]

I played with a guy who made a point of never NRing. Bit of an eccentric chap, around an 18 handicapper and could play some ridiculously good shots at times.

Heard a rumour he had taken 24 shots to get out of a bunker on a Par 3 in one medal. 'Nonsense' we all thought. 'You would just pick it up'.

Sure enough, he admitted to it, saying 'I just hate putting in No Return'.

I'm sure that would have held up the course.

I think there is a bit of confusion here about what the difference is between an NR and not returning the card at all but I may be wrong...

NRing holes but still putting the card into the computer is fine. You just put a 0 beside the hole and you will be assigned 0 points and an NR in the gross section. This is absolutely fine to do from a admin point of view.

Not entering the score into the computer at all is what causes the issues. Players should always enter the score into the computer no matter how bad their score is.

The thread is about people not returning a card at all.

 

[jim8flog]

I’m confused about that last statement and what NR and not putting the card in has to do with cat 1 protecting HC ? If the card is not returned then it’s a .1 and DQ - clear rule

"If a player does not enter the competition using the computer system their card is not acceptable for handicap purposes CONGU UHS Decision 1"

 

[rulefan]

Repeated NRs - the players is questioned. If no good reasons provided and building a handicap is suspected, playing rights may be suspended.

Repeated no cards returned - playing rights suspended.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Dont have any sanctions or punative actions for NR's, not signing or handing in cards.
Just a 0.1 increase on the handicap.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

"If a player does not enter the competition using the computer system their card is not acceptable for handicap purposes CONGU UHS Decision 1"

So are you saying when players enter your comps they don’t either go to the pro shop to pick up there card and pay or enter in via a PSI - that’s pretty much a basic requirement for any Comp and every Comp I have played has a system where a player enters in place

But it’s also irrelevant to the question asked which is about entering “scores” once completed into a PSI which isn’t an actual requirement

It think you also need read the full decision that you have quoted

It is saying that each club must have a process in place where someone is entering into a Competition

So before your new system how did someone enter the Comp ? Or are you saying people could enter a Comp without telling someone or entering beforehand ?

 

[Backsticks]

NR is your business and 0.1 increase applied...

Not necessarily.

"The UHS is based on the premise that a player will endeavour to make the best score he can at each hole in every qualifying round he plays and will report all such rounds for handicap purposes.
Any player who fails to carry out any of the responsibilities imposed by the UHS is not entitled to a CONGU® Handicap."

The reason for the NR does matter. And the nature of the NR card returned or not returned. We dont always apply the 0.1.
Depending on the case, if a player simply returned a card with the first few holes filled in and nothing after that - whether entered in the computer or not, we dont automatically apply the 0.1 increase. Three holes are hardly grounds for modifying someones handicap. And unless there is an exceptional reason, they have not complied with their obligation to try their best for 18. If it happens 2 or 3 times within a half dozen or so rounds (no hard and fast rule), we call them to advise them that this is not acceptable and that competition or handicap suspension sanction may be applied if they continue. Over the last few years, I dont remember that not restoring compliance.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So what you’re saying if someone goes out to play well but has a complete mare in the first 3/4 holes and his round is over so NR every hole after so that he could still do his fC scorecard and he wants to just carry you won’t put the card through because he hasn’t tried for every hole in the round ?! Seems a bit daft because plenty club golfers start really badly and give up after a few bad holes but you are giving them a once get out clause by saying you won’t give them the .1 back ?!

 

[shortgame]

No sanctions for NRs. Who is to know why you'd NR - could be anything - from yes 'can't be bothered any more more' to much more personal issues - some could be physical but often they can be mental - too much on mind - maybe difficult upsetting stuff. Who's to know and who has the right to pass judgement on your reasons....nobody that's who. The player goes up 0.1 and CSS takes the NR into account - nobody else is affected.

For me:

● Fine (within reason) to N/R (eg if you lose a ball near the end of a medal round)

● Not fine - not handing card in. (eg to save embarassment for a bad round, can't be bothered etc).

There is a difference!

 

[Grant85]

For me:

● Fine (within reason) to N/R (eg if you lose a ball near the end of a medal round)

● Not fine - not handing card in. (eg to save embarassment for a bad round, can't be bothered etc).

There is a difference!

Be interesting to see how this changes when the handicap system changes.

Assume not handing in your card results in 36 over par being thrown into the mix, this should serve as a bigger discouragement. Albeit unlikely to count in your best 8, unless you were doing it every time you had a bad round.

 

[jusme]

I'm amazed so much debate in this thread. NR for whatever reason is normal. Not returning cards for ANY reason is not acceptable and affects the field. It is that simple

 

[User 99]

Not returning cards for ANY reason is not acceptable and affects the field. It is that simple

You get a call on the course to say your child has dropped down dead, do you still nip in to return your card ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm amazed so much debate in this thread. NR for whatever reason is normal. Not returning cards for ANY reason is not acceptable and affects the field. It is that simple

How does it affect the field ? It’s just counted as a DQ 1 worse than buffer . And seen plenty of acceptable reasons for a card not returned , it never really bothered me that much if someone didn’t return the card

 

[MendieGK]

How does it affect the field ? It’s just counted as a DQ 1 worse than buffer . And seen plenty of acceptable reasons for a card not returned , it never really bothered me that much if someone didn’t return the card

So a DQ still counts in the % for CSS calculation? That’s my one thing I’ve learnt today 😬

 

[jusme]

How does it affect the field ? It’s just counted as a DQ 1 worse than buffer . And seen plenty of acceptable reasons for a card not returned , it never really bothered me that much if someone didn’t return the card

Only cards returned are used to calculate CSS, therefore a potentially wrong CSS is used if several people complete rounds and don't return cards

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Only cards returned are used to calculate CSS, therefore a potentially wrong CSS is used if several people complete rounds and don't return cards

A quick check on our recent Comp results show three people DQ from the Comp for not submitting their card - a quick check on the CSS shows the DQ which becomes an NR is part of the CSS calculation.

If you fail to enter a card then the score is entered as a DQ which will be classed as one worse than buffer and goes through the CSS calculation - the only scores that wouldn’t go through the CSS are someone without a Competition Handicap or if the scorecard isn’t in the results when closing the Comp

 

[Capella]

You get a call on the course to say your child has dropped down dead, do you still nip in to return your card ?

Well, you are not out there on your own. In this situation, I am sure one of your playing partners could hold on to the card and return it to the pro shop or office after the round and explain what happened. (Actually, at my club I am pretty sure that no-one would let you drive off on your own in that situation anyways, but either take you home themselves or have the club office arrange a taxi for you or something like that)

That's what I don't get. You are not just a player, you are also always a marker for someone else. So when you, for whatever reason, feel that you have to leave mid-round, it should be a given that the other members of your group are at least informed about your leaving, so that they can re-assign marker duty to someone else. And then they might just as well return your score card for you if it is too much of an inconvenience to make your way back to the club house or if really tragedy just struck and you can't think straight.

The only scenario I can think of where score cards are not returned at all is if a whole group decides to leave together. I never heard of that happening at my club (but then again, we don't do roll-ups, comps are usually drawn and with fixed tee-times ... you really don't just wander off)

 

[jim8flog]

So are you saying when players enter your comps they don’t either go to the pro shop to pick up there card and pay or enter in via a PSI - that’s pretty much a basic requirement for any Comp and every Comp I have played has a system where a player enters in place

But it’s also irrelevant to the question asked which is about entering “scores” once completed into a PSI which isn’t an actual requirement

It think you also need read the full decision that you have quoted

It is saying that each club must have a process in place where someone is entering into a Competition

So before your new system how did someone enter the Comp ? Or are you saying people could enter a Comp without telling someone or entering beforehand ?

This is the wording from the manual (our Rule was written from the old manual)
Q.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]A club has a Competition Condition requiring entry by applying a swipe card to a computer terminal. What is the situation if a player fails to fulfil this obligation? [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]A.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]R&A Rules Limited [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]has ruled that a Committee must lay down a procedure for entry and if a competitor fails to enter a competition in the correct manner he does not have an acceptable score.’ Accordingly such a player does not have a score either for the competition or for handicap purposes. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]
We have a requirement that players enter themselves in the competition using a computer terminal as part of our competition entry process for most of our optional medal comps (3-4 a week).

Initial entry is done by paper in the pro shop but this is considered only stage one of our entry process.

As said with nearly 20% (20 + players some Saturdays) of the field not completing the entry requirements the need for a disciplinary procedure was felt to be necessary.