Club sanctions for Non-return of Competition Score card & PSI entry

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For me:

● Fine (within reason) to N/R (eg if you lose a ball near the end of a medal round)

● Not fine - not handing card in. (eg to save embarassment for a bad round, can't be bothered etc).

There is a difference!

I agree. If you complete your round you should really submit your card - even if it's a NR for whatever reason.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You get a call on the course to say your child has dropped down dead, do you still nip in to return your card ?

Has this ever happened that you know of...?

There's the thing. So unusual and extreme nobody would be in the slightest bit fussed.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This is the wording from the manual (our Rule was written from the old manual)
Q.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]A club has a Competition Condition requiring entry by applying a swipe card to a computer terminal. What is the situation if a player fails to fulfil this obligation? [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]A.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]R&A Rules Limited [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]has ruled that a Committee must lay down a procedure for entry and if a competitor fails to enter a competition in the correct manner he does not have an acceptable score.’ Accordingly such a player does not have a score either for the competition or for handicap purposes. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]
We have a requirement that players enter themselves in the competition using a computer terminal as part of our competition entry process for most of our optional medal comps (3-4 a week).

Initial entry is done by paper in the pro shop but this is considered only stage one of our entry process.

As said with nearly 20% (20 + players some Saturdays) of the field not completing the entry requirements the need for a disciplinary procedure was felt to be necessary.

I have read the wording and many clubs don’t use the PSI to book into - they still use the pro shop etc

But that still doesn’t address the point how your system allowed Cat 1 players to protect their HC before you changed it ?

Surely before you changed to PSI entry on arrival you still had a manual entry system when a player still had to book in before playing as per the Congu requirements

If players are not entering the Comp before playing then any score regardless should not be considered - simple

Amazed that a club can have 20 plus people not going into a pro shop to pick up the card before going out to play a Comp - that’s just open for abuse by anyone not just cat 1

 

[jim8flog]

I have read the wording and many clubs don’t use the PSI to book into - they still use the pro shop etc

But that still doesn’t address the point how your system allowed Cat 1 players to protect their HC before you changed it ?

Surely before you changed to PSI entry on arrival you still had a manual entry system when a player still had to book in before playing as per the Congu requirements

If players are not entering the Comp before playing then any score regardless should not be considered - simple

Amazed that a club can have 20 plus people not going into a pro shop to pick up the card before going out to play a Comp - that’s just open for abuse by anyone not just cat 1

You are misreading the point about the 20 players. They were completing the first part - sign in the pro shop but were not completing the second part enter on the computer.

Entering on to the PSI is not a requirement before the round commences, we open at 7.30 am and the clubs' computers may not be 'activated' at that time. PSI entry is allowed after the round has been completed and is the option most players go for.

I only joined the committee shortly before we introduced the Disciplianry Procedure and it was one of my first tasks to write it out.

My understanding was if a card had not been entered on to the PSI and the card could not be found it was assumed that the player had failed to follow the procedures (sometimes deliberately) and player could not be contacted easily the competition was closed. We are far too busy a course (4 comps need to be closed on many a Monday morning) to go chasing around that many players.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are misreading the point about the 20 players. They were completing the first part - sign in the pro shop but were not completing the second part enter on the computer.

Entering on to the PSI is not a requirement before the round commences, we open at 7.30 am and the clubs' computers may not be 'activated' at that time. PSI entry is allowed after the round has been completed and is the option most players go for.

I only joined the committee shortly before we introduced the Disciplianry Procedure and it was one of my first tasks to write it out.

My understanding was if a card had not been entered on to the PSI and the card could not be found it was assumed that the player had failed to follow the procedures (sometimes deliberately) and player could not be contacted easily the competition was closed. We are far too busy a course (4 comps need to be closed on many a Monday morning) to go chasing around that many players.

It’s simple - if the player has entered into the Comp via the Pro Shop they have entered into the Comp - if their card isn’t there when the Comp closes then it’s a DQ , simple - why make any assumptions ? Why chase people for cards ?

Seems to me you are over complicating it - player enters Comp , then submits card after - if card can’t be found then DQ - nothing more needs to be done

As soon as someone enters a Comp their HC is on the line - they can’t get around that by “not putting their card “ in

 

[jim8flog]

I would add that I have played with players in the past who have commented. I am not handing that card in I do not want the handicap adjustment. Also players that have felt their round was so bad that all they wanted to do was to jump in to the car and drive off taking the card with them.

As said we have seen major drop off in the number of players not completely all the entry requirements since introducing the disciplinary measures and a new procedure for pre booked competitions (these require booking in on the clubs computer in the first place and the comp secretary registers the entry on the PSI).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm confused. If you enter the comp but for whatever reason you do not hand your card in - is that not just the same as a NR? I know as a player you are automatically DQ'd from the comp, but are you not still subject to a 0.1 increase in h/cap and you are counted as a NR as far as the comp stats and CSS are concerned.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Surely you cant enter a competition after you have played it?
We have 2 PSI screens, one in the pro shop and a scond in the stud bar, which is always accessible when the course is open for play.

 

[patricks148]

I would add that I have played with players in the past who have commented. I am not handing that card in I do not want the handicap adjustment. Also players that have felt their round was so bad that all they wanted to do was to jump in to the car and drive off taking the card with them.

As said we have seen major drop off in the number of players not completely all the entry requirements since introducing the disciplinary measures and a new procedure for pre booked competitions (these require booking in on the clubs computer in the first place and the comp secretary registers the entry on the PSI).

i don't get this at all, how can you get away without an adjustment, no card, 0.1 automatically surely ???

my club pay entry at the proshop, without that you are not in the comp. once you have entered this you are in the comp and the shop put your name on the computer. comps all tend to be AM and if you wandered in afternoon after playing and tried to enter you would be told to bugger off.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Surely you cant enter a competition after you have played it?
We have 2 PSI screens, one in the pro shop and a scond in the stud bar, which is always accessible when the course is open for play.

Correct - you must enter the competition before you go out.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

i don't get this at all, how can you get away without an adjustment, no card, 0.1 automatically surely ???

my club pay entry at the proshop, without that you are not in the comp. once you have entered this you are in the comp and the shop put your name on the computer. comps all tend to be AM and if you wandered in afternoon after playing and tried to enter you would be told to bugger off.

Has always been my understanding

 

[jusme]

How does it affect the field ? It’s just counted as a DQ 1 worse than buffer . And seen plenty of acceptable reasons for a card not returned , it never really bothered me that much if someone didn’t return the card

For the sake of the argument.....all cards not handed in are marked as 1 worse than buffer. Lets say 10 cards are not handed back. Do you think the actual scores on those cards are all 1 worse than buffer? Some may be cracking cards several less than buffers (handicap protectors) and some may be shockers - several worse than buffer. Maybe all of them are terrible and reflects how hard the course was playing that day. My point is a TRUE CSS can only be arrived at by having all cards counted.

Put simply giving non returns 1 worse than buffer is simply a guess (I understand why its done) and as such the CSS may be different than what it actually would be if all cards where returned. As a result some who are buffering/getting cut/going up may not have had this change if a different CSS existed. That's how it affects the field and it's why some clubs are very strict on ending no returns

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For the sake of the argument.....all cards not handed in are marked as 1 worse than buffer. Lets say 10 cards are not handed back. Do you think the actual scores on those cards are all 1 worse than buffer? Some may be cracking cards several less than buffers (handicap protectors) and some may be shockers - several worse than buffer. Maybe all of them are terrible and reflects how hard the course was playing that day. My point is a TRUE CSS can only be arrived at by having all cards counted.

Put simply giving non returns 1 worse than buffer is simply a guess (I understand why its done) and as such the CSS may be different than what it actually would be if all cards where returned. As a result some who are buffering/getting cut/going up may not have had this change if a different CSS existed. That's how it affects the field and it's why some clubs are very strict on ending no returns

Do you really think someone who has played better than buffer won’t hand their card in ? Certainly not in my experience over the years closing comps

In my whole time doing the comps there was one occasion where someone who had played better than buffer forgot to hand their card in - everyone else played poorly , that’s the main reason they don’t put their card into the system and into the box.

Several worse than buffer is no different than one worse than buffer - it’s all counted the same thing - missing buffer - doesn’t matter if you miss by 20 shots or 1 shot - CSS is the same

Clubs want people to hand their card in because it helps the volunteers closing the Comp not because of affects on CSS

 

[jim8flog]

Could somebody actually point me to the Rule in the CONGU UHS manual that says a card not returned is an automatic 0.1 increase.

 

[rulefan]

Incomplete cards and ‘no returns’ have an effect on a player’s handicap. The Handicap Committee would be justified in:
(a) refusing to accept a card or record a ‘no return’ when the player has walked in after playing only a few holes;
(b) not issuing cards to players where there is obviously insufficient light for them to complete their round;
(c) giving sympathetic consideration to players who have had to discontinue play for any reason considered to be reasonable by the organising committee.

Affiliated Clubs have the discretion under Clauses 23 and 24 of the UHS to deal with a player who persistently submits incomplete cards or makes ‘no returns’.

 

[duncan mackie]

Incomplete cards and ‘no returns’ have an effect on a player’s handicap. The Handicap Committee would be justified in:
(a) refusing to accept a card or record a ‘no return’ when the player has walked in after playing only a few holes;
(b) not issuing cards to players where there is obviously insufficient light for them to complete their round;
(c) giving sympathetic consideration to players who have had to discontinue play for any reason considered to be reasonable by the organising committee.

Affiliated Clubs have the discretion under Clauses 23 and 24 of the UHS to deal with a player who persistently submits incomplete cards or makes ‘no returns’.

I think the critical element lies in the wording here.

The default position is that failure to reach buffer gets you 0.1 - that's also clearly written in the manual!!!

There are situations as posted above that may justify the committee (note it's a Committee decision required not handicap sec, and as such should be minuted) making a positive decision not to impose this. If they believe that someone is trying to build a handicap they have (a) above - but they should have a reason for this and, were a cat 1 golfer to play the first 6 holes in 20 over and walk in that's hardly the case.

 

[jim8flog]

Incomplete cards and ‘no returns’ have an effect on a player’s handicap. The Handicap Committee would be justified in:
(a) refusing to accept a card or record a ‘no return’ when the player has walked in after playing only a few holes;
(b) not issuing cards to players where there is obviously insufficient light for them to complete their round;
(c) giving sympathetic consideration to players who have had to discontinue play for any reason considered to be reasonable by the organising committee.

Affiliated Clubs have the discretion under Clauses 23 and 24 of the UHS to deal with a player who persistently submits incomplete cards or makes ‘no returns’.

This does not answer my question. The question refers to cards not returned not cards that have NR on them.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Could somebody actually point me to the Rule in the CONGU UHS manual that says a card not returned is an automatic 0.1 increase.

You are fully aware, imo, there is no such rule.

 

[duncan mackie]

You are fully aware, imo, there is no such rule.

Of course there is, its fundamental!

Failure to return a card is rule 6-6b and results in the penalty of DQ.

Current CONGU Rule 17.1 (c) covers that, and Appendix P gives the exceptions (which include failure to sign, and delay in returning, but not failure to return - for obvious reasons!)

Finally you reference DISQUALIFIED SCORES in the definitions which tells you

Disqualified Score
A Disqualified Score for handicap purposes is any score returned in a Qualifying Competition, or as a Supplementary Score, when the player has been disqualified by the Committee from the competition or stipulated round for a breach of the Rules of Golf. Depending upon the nature of
the breach, the score, or adjusted score under Clause 19, may be within the Buffer Zone or qualify for a handicap reduction. Otherwise an increase in Exact Handicap of 0.1 is applied -see Appendix P.

 

[duncan mackie]

This does not answer my question. The question refers to cards not returned not cards that have NR on them.

See post #59