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Catholic Church

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Ethan said:
This is 'we don't know everything, so anything's possible' fallacy.

Nonsense.

Unquestioning refers to the attitude in some religions that you must have faith or you are not properly observant. Nice trick because faith means belief without proof and it stops the followers from questioning the basis for their religion. Once some of them do the questioning, they often leave when they realise what a load of nonsense it all is.
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Crap.

I'm sure like me that people who "believe" still question their beliefs, many many times.
 
Is it to difficult for those who think homosexuality is unnatural to accept that some people disagree and think it is natural?

And, is it to difficult for those who think homosexuality is natural to accept that some people disagree and think it is unnatural?

Just saying like.
 
This thread has gotten lost has it not, its now about whether God exists or not , i believe he does and nothing you say will change that , if you dont believe there is nothing i can say to change that ,

there is no point in arguing with each other over it because there is no proof either way , just gota agree to have different beliefs but respect the other persons beliefs

One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago, religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee

But remember 2 things , if you dont believe , feel free not to associate yourself with that religion , but the fact they dont agree with you or fit your way of life doesnt make them wrong & vice versa for the people who want to believe

Secondly religions & beliefs aint the real problem , but the people who bend & twist what was written for a very different time to suit their agendas now are ..

we are not all going to agree on this so please dont get carried away with the discussion
 
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bladeplayer said:
This thread has gotten lost has it not, its now about whether God exists or not , i believe he does and nothing you say will change that , if you dont believe there is nothing i can say to change that ,

there is no point in arguing with each other over it because there is no proof either way , just gota agree to have different beliefs but respect the other persons beliefs

One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee

But remember 2 things , if you dont believe feel free not to associate yourself with that religion , but thr tact they dont agrew with you or fit your way of life doesnt make them wrong & vice versa for the people who want to believe

Secondly religions & beliefs aint the real problem , but the people who bend & twist what was written for a very different time in the name of religion are ..

we are not all going to agree on this so please dont get carried away with the discussion
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wise words Bill :thup:
 
bladeplayer said:
One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago, religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee
Click to expand...

Good point. Out of interest, would it be fair to say any religion has adapted and moved their core messages on for the current world we live in? I don't mean IS and their terror campaign, that's separate to this discussion, but would you say the Jews, Sikhs, Muslims (not IS splinter) or any other religion has really moved on. Not sure I think any has and is promoting a message that's relevant to today
 
PhilTheFragger said:
Google is your friend.

James, you said it wasn't natural, the article and other research proves that it is quite common.
And I would guess that it feels totally natural to those members of the human race who are so inclined, including certain members of this forum, whom I am very keen not to alienate.
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I certainly don't want alienate anyone but should someone ask
"I don't understand why homosexuality which rates only a few passing mentions (if that) in some versions of the bible causes so much vexation within the catholic church, and others, if it is not down to old-fashioned bigotry."
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then there's every reason to have a discussion about it.

I believe my bottom was made for me to use the toilet, anything else (however 'natural' it may be referred to) certainly isn't. Sure I understand people who love someone of the same gender, and accept those that go on to have sex with said person for mutual love/pleasure... but it's not natural.

I think in society we become jaded and adopt things that we see time and time again as becoming acceptable we certainly have to take on board practically every minority nowadays for fear of being seen as not 'PC'. I don't mind who someone shares their bed with but to expect an establishment such as the Catholic Church to want to change the very fundamentals of their beliefs for a minority group is a huge step - a step too far in my opinion... however sooner or later they will 'need the votes' and probably change, just not for a while yet. To not understand the principles of the church (and refer to it as bigotry) is naive at the very least IMO.
 
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HomerJSimpson said:
Good point. Out of interest, would it be fair to say any religion has adapted and moved their core messages on for the current world we live in? I don't mean IS and their terror campaign, that's separate to this discussion, but would you say the Jews, Sikhs, Muslims (not IS splinter) or any other religion has really moved on. Not sure I think any has and is promoting a message that's relevant to today
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Id say none Martin .. and i cant see any doing it and generation by generation belief will be less and less and IMO more & more people will choose to be governed by the law of the land rather than scripture written in a very different time ..
 
bladeplayer said:
This thread has gotten lost has it not, its now about whether God exists or not , i believe he does and nothing you say will change that , if you dont believe there is nothing i can say to change that ,

there is no point in arguing with each other over it because there is no proof either way , just gota agree to have different beliefs but respect the other persons beliefs

One really good point in this was made by Hacker Khan ages ago, religion (well mine anyhow) has got to rethink and adapt or it will like many things set in its ways be left behind.. the world we live in is a million miles away from what even the dreamers of that time could forsee

But remember 2 things , if you dont believe , feel free not to associate yourself with that religion , but the fact they dont agree with you or fit your way of life doesnt make them wrong & vice versa for the people who want to believe

Secondly religions & beliefs aint the real problem , but the people who bend & twist what was written for a very different time to suit their agendas now are ..

we are not all going to agree on this so please dont get carried away with the discussion
Click to expand...

I agree this is going round in circles, but you are building an argument of false equivalency - one side can't prove, nor can the other, so its a draw.

The world we live in has sets of rules, call them laws of nature, laws of physics, whatever. The assertion of anything which fundamentally clashes with the truths of the observed world require extraordinary proof, because they change the way we understand the world. Existence of God is the big daddy of such beliefs, but it gets a pass from the normal demands for proof because it has a long history in modern civilisation (although short in the history of humans and their ancestors) and is intertwined with society and culture.

In short, atheists shouldn't have to prove their is no God, because there is no proof that there is one, and the notion is so contrary to everything that makes sense. It should therefore require extraordinary proof.

Religion has constantly changed, because the whole story is built on loose ground and needs to change otherwise more people would see right through it.

And between the two sides, those who believe in God and those who don't, one of them IS wrong. There is a famous philosophical argument, Pascal's Wager, which says that if you are not sure, believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager It is sometimes shortened to the idea that it is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than the opposite.
 
Ethan said:
There is a famous philosophical argument, Pascal's Wager, which says that if you are not sure, believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager It is sometimes shortened to the idea that it is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than the opposite.
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I can name a fair few who believe on that basis.

My sentiment is that if there really truly happened to be a God and he couldn't find it in himself to forgive me for not believing in him then he's an arse! I've forgiven people for far worse :p

(that's me with my bases covered) :D
 
bladeplayer said:
Id say none Martin .. and i cant see any doing it and generation by generation belief will be less and less and IMO more & more people will choose to be governed by the law of the land rather than scripture written in a very different time ..
Click to expand...

I can kind of see that with Catholics, CoE, Protestants and to a degree the Jewish faith within the UK at least but as we get more and more from a Sikh and Muslim persuasion over here will there come a time when they will be the main faiths in the UK (if we aren't there already).
 
I don't really get the religion should move with the times argument.

In the case of followers of the big fella, the big man upstairs handed down the ten commandments and said something along the lines of 'see here now, these are the rules by which you should live your life'. Simple instructions.

Now, If he wants to alter/amend or in any way update his rules then I'm sure he'll appear with a new tablet (maybe a nexus?) with his update. But so far he hasn't, so until then the big dudes followers should be living their lives guided by his original commandments and not just the bits they fancy adhering to, or extra bits that somebody in a dress and pointy hat tells them. That, in my book, means they aren't proper followers of the big guy upstairs. :)
 
Ethan said:
I agree this is going round in circles, but you are building an argument of false equivalency - one side can't prove, nor can the other, so its a draw.

The world we live in has sets of rules, call them laws of nature, laws of physics, whatever. The assertion of anything which fundamentally clashes with the truths of the observed world require extraordinary proof, because they change the way we understand the world. Existence of God is the big daddy of such beliefs, but it gets a pass from the normal demands for proof because it has a long history in modern civilisation (although short in the history of humans and their ancestors) and is intertwined with society and culture.

In short, atheists shouldn't have to prove their is no God, because there is no proof that there is one, and the notion is so contrary to everything that makes sense. It should therefore require extraordinary proof.

Religion has constantly changed, because the whole story is built on loose ground and needs to change otherwise more people would see right through it.

And between the two sides, those who believe in God and those who don't, one of them IS wrong. There is a famous philosophical argument, Pascal's Wager, which says that if you are not sure, believe in God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager It is sometimes shortened to the idea that it is better to believe in God and be proven wrong than the opposite.
Click to expand...

Jaypers , where to start ..

im not building anything , im just stating the one fact there can be regarding religion , the fact that one persons right to believe is the same as the others not to, the fact that the proof either way is not there right now & maybe never will be..

I did write alot more but ive removed it , whats the point we have different beliefs and we could argue or discuss it endlessly ..

Its not my job to convince anyone there is or isnt a God , if when my kids get older they decided ya know what da i dont believe any of this mullarkey , il talk to them and ask why , i will discuss it with them but end of day , i will not force them to believe
 
JustOne said:
I can name a fair few who believe on that basis.

My sentiment is that if there really truly happened to be a God and he couldn't find it in himself to forgive me for not believing in him then he's an arse! I've forgiven people for far worse :p

(that's me with my bases covered) :D
Click to expand...

Chicken ha ha
 
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