Credibility and morals of the Catholic Church

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Bomber69 said:
I don't see why he should close the thread as it is all over the news and being discussed all over the world.

Shocking things have been going on and I think this is only the tip of the iceberg with a lot more to follow over the next few weeks.

O'Brien should be lockedup for what he has done not be delt with by his leaders as I don't think they can be trusted to deal with it.
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So what has he done that he should be locked up for? I haven't read or heard that he has done anything illegal and all i have read or heard was that he was reported to the Vatican for "inappropriate behaviour" which for some reason people tend to think is illegal, I think we need to find out what this behaviour was before throwing the legal book at him.

BTW, I'm not making excuses for the man as I think his hypocrisy is not only shocking but as a catholic it so disappointing and demoralising to the faith.
 
Valentino said:
So what has he done that he should be locked up for? I haven't read or heard that he has done anything illegal and all i have read or heard was that he was reported to the Vatican for "inappropriate behaviour" which for some reason people tend to think is illegal, I think we need to find out what this behaviour was before throwing the legal book at him.

BTW, I'm not making excuses for the man as I think his hypocrisy is not only shocking but as a catholic it so disappointing and demoralising to the faith.
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No not necessarily illegal, but certainly contrary to the behaviour he is meant to uphold as a cardinal in the catholic church and carrying out acts that are apparently in the eyes of the catholic church a sin.

Having said not illegal, it's grey isn't it? much like a teacher banging a 17 year pupil - it's called abuse of power
 
stevie_r said:
No not necessarily illegal, but certainly contrary to the behaviour he is meant to uphold as a cardinal in the catholic church and carrying out acts that are apparently in the eyes of the catholic church a sin.

Having said not illegal, it's grey isn't it? much like a teacher banging a 17 year pupil - it's called abuse of power
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I'm not suggesting its right, but people have called for him to be locked up, hence why I asked what was illegal.
 
Valentino said:
Is abuse of power a jailing offence? I don't think a teacher and a 17 year old is either. Understand your comparison though.
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Not sure myself to be honest, trying to google similar precedents. It's all a bit of a mess isn't it? I chat quite frequently on concepts of religion with my best mate's missus, she is a catholic but lapsed - something to do with her not being able to confess due to her marriage. But anyhoo, her opinion was when O'Brien came out with his statement that the catholic clergy should be allowed to marry, that he was a man she would welcome as pope; who would drag the church into the current century. Followed by the massive revelations, she is obviously quite deflated.
 
Fader said:
Way I look at this is no matter what the organisation whether its the Catholic Church, police force, NHS, Armed forces, government or BBC which are all massive in their own right by sheer weight of numbers there will be people in all of them that are of questionable character whether that be drugs, sexual predators, financial rip off merchants or simply those that cover up all of these things. IMO it's not the organisations that should be questioned or what they stand for but merely the man or woman guilty of the crime.

To blame the short comings and questionable nature of these individuals on the organisation as a whole is completely wrong. Is it the fault of the religion and faith this man does what he does no it's the fault of the man himself and the few that hid it for him. Catholics faith is not in the priest, bishop, cardinal or pontiff it's in the religion of Christianity itself and what it means.

It's easy to say to be catholic is to be brainwashed an to believe in something evil and find fault but it amazes me how when something a man does the whole religion is questioned an everything good it stands for and does for people around the world is overlooked to sensationalise the bad. It's a bit like me saying my Dr is crap which she is and I have suffered at her misdiagnosis before and then saying as result the whole of the NHS is crap because she is! It doesn't work like that there will be bad apples in every bunch but it isn't the fault of the many that the few are rotten to the core!

I believe the Catholic Church should let gay and lesbians become priests, that a person sexuality is irrelevant we all have a right to be who we want and with who we choose it doesn't change who we are as a person. I think priests should be able to marry and have a family if they so choose and that the church needs to modernise and learn to evolve. But despite all of the shortfalls of it and what I feel needs to change I'm happy to admit I'm catholic and remain one through my own choosing and not just because I was raised as one, my belief is in the good it does many and in a god. I may get ridiculed on here and elsewhere on occasion for believing but we all have a right to our beliefs and that if you choose not to believe then fine by me each to their own.

But come on let's not tarnish everyone with the same brush whether they believe or not.
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I don't think anyone is mocking the religion and tarnishing everyone with the same brush. I'm questioning how the Catholic Church (certainly in Scotland) can recover from this latest bombshell. I agree that the Catholic Church does fantastic work and I agree its not a slight on everyone. I do find it shocking that a man who was so openly against same sex relationships has now been outed as a potential predator himself where he used his position and influence within the Church to bully and abuse lesser priests. Isn't that ironic!

To then come out and deny it before a humiliating back down also questions the moral stance and integrity of the man. I also wonder how long it was all hushed up for before the story finally broke as I'm sure it didn't just surface last week.
 
thecraw said:
I don't think anyone is mocking the religion and tarnishing everyone with the same brush. I'm questioning how the Catholic Church (certainly in Scotland) can recover from this latest bombshell. I agree that the Catholic Church does fantastic work and I agree its not a slight on everyone. I do find it shocking that a man who was so openly against same sex relationships has now been outed as a potential predator himself where he used his position and influence within the Church to bully and abuse lesser priests. Isn't that ironic!

To then come out and deny it before a humiliating back down also questions the moral stance and integrity of the man. I also wonder how long it was all hushed up for before the story finally broke as I'm sure it didn't just surface last week.
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I'm not anyone one in this tread is specifically doing that it actually a change for a religion thread to still be running and not S&T down. Generally though when someone in the church does something wrong everyone blames the religion itself and there have been comments of brainwashing etc. all I merely mean is its not the religions fault this guy did what he did or that it was covered up the fault lies with the individuals concerned.


But I certainly see the irony that you mention in his actions being exactly that which he was openly voicing being against. Also it is certainly an abuse of the power he had within the church that he did these things and was able to get others to cover for him.

In a way it's a shame that for so many years he had to hide his sexuality because of his occupation but that doesn't excuse what he did to other more junior colleagues. If anything that where the short comings of Catholicism lay had they allowed priest to have relationships and be gay which would not affect his ability as a priest, it may have prevented the whole situation as he could have done his duty to the church and happily been a gay man at the same time meaning he had no need to secretly prey on others. But that's hindsight who knows why he did what he did just have to hope the church learn from this and start realising that some of the laws were outdated many years ago and need to be addressed.
 
I've been reading this thread with interest and every now and again someone pops up with the old 'don't tarnish the whole church cause of one guy" line and also stating that the RC church does a lot of good work.

Firstly, the church has for years covered up claims of child abuse from top to bottom. The now ex pope has been given exemption from any kind of prosecution for any crimes or cover up of crimes. Why is this?

Secondly, what good work does the church actually do?

Now I'm not a fan of religion at all but it seems the RC church is particularly bad when it comes to this sort of thing so surely an investigation into all these claims needs to be carried out.
 
Valentino said:
So what has he done that he should be locked up for? I haven't read or heard that he has done anything illegal and all i have read or heard was that he was reported to the Vatican for "inappropriate behaviour" which for some reason people tend to think is illegal, I think we need to find out what this behaviour was before throwing the legal book at him.

BTW, I'm not making excuses for the man as I think his hypocrisy is not only shocking but as a catholic it so disappointing and demoralising to the faith.
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I am not sure yet Big Fella but I am sure that it will all come out in the wash and if he did force himself on these Priests then surely that is illegal is it not or is that allowed within the RC church, I am also sure it would not have been his first time and the guy is rotten to the core and like the Jimmy Savile case lots more will follow if they are allowed to speak up.

I just hope there is not a blanket cover up by the media as I am sure good honest RC's want answers.
 
It won't be the media covering it up, they love a scandal. The church will have an internal investigation, involving a broom, and a carpet. They do it every time.
 
stublue2701 said:
Secondly, what good work does the church actually do?
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Have you heard SCIAF, CAFOD, St Vincent De Paul, The Mungo Foundation to name a few, there are tonnes of charities which benefit from the Catholic Church and Catholic people.

Bomber69 said:
I am not sure yet Big Fella but I am sure that it will all come out in the wash and if he did force himself on these Priests then surely that is illegal is it not or is that allowed within the RC church, I am also sure it would not have been his first time and the guy is rotten to the core and like the Jimmy Savile case lots more will follow if they are allowed to speak up.

I just hope there is not a blanket cover up by the media as I am sure good honest RC's want answers.
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If there was to be a cover up no one would know now, the guys was retiring in weeks. Nothing like being innocent untill proven otherwise eh :rolleyes:

If it has been found and reported that he sexually assaulted these 3 priests and 1 former priest then he should have the book thrown at him but untill we hear otherwise then it will always be speculation and it will always be assumed to be of the worst kind for those who are not catholic.

I'll say again I'm not making excuses but given how this is hurting my faith then I'll be open minded and post accordingly.
 
Every organisation that does good will inevitably hide members that use this as a front for their own ends. That includes religions and indeed public bodies such as police. Let us be honest about this, the man in question cannot believe in God and Jesus Christ if he has been party to the things he has been accused of. Religion has always had dark sides, they have committed many wrongs to many people in the name of God. They also do good around the world. There is no way to root these people out when they are hidden by corrupt politics. He will be judged but I believe by a higher being than anyone on earth. This will be his fate and the fate of the other so called religious hierarchy that have protected him with full knowledge of his crimes.
 
drawboy said:
Every organisation that does good will inevitably hide members that use this as a front for their own ends. That includes religions and indeed public bodies such as police. Let us be honest about this, the man in question cannot believe in God and Jesus Christ if he has been party to the things he has been accused of. Religion has always had dark sides, they have committed many wrongs to many people in the name of God. They also do good around the world. There is no way to root these people out when they are hidden by corrupt politics. He will be judged but I believe by a higher being than anyone on earth. This will be his fate and the fate of the other so called religious hierarchy that have protected him with full knowledge of his crimes.
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Thats the thing though, all he has been accused of is "inappropriate behavior" and no one knows what that is. It could be trying to plank the lips on someone and getting a knockback which wouldnt be a crime or it could be trying to force himself on someone which could see him serve time in the big hoose.
 
Valentino said:
Have you heard SCIAF, CAFOD, St Vincent De Paul, The Mungo Foundation to name a few, there are tonnes of charities which benefit from the Catholic Church and Catholic people.

Does the RC church only help RC people? I find that quite seculiar and not very christian at all.
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