Indeed,what I don't understand is your assertion that Val was being personal......care to enlighten me on that too then?
Indeed,what I don't understand is your assertion that Val was being personal......care to enlighten me on that too then?
bigslice
Tour Winner
yes
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
Where to begin? Child abuse is obviously a horrendous thing but as a gay lady, my main objection to them is their obsessive hatred of people like myself.
The vile o'brien stirred up homophobic hatred in the guise of religious "teaching" despite being a gay man himself. Even worse, he abused his position of authority to molest priests that were subordinate to him. The Catholic Church is a busted flush. Surely any thinking follower can see the hypocrisy of their outbursts against LGBT people? How many other priests are closeted gays? How can you trust a single word any of these people says?
Above this, of course, all religion is absurd anyway so the sooner all these cults die out the better.
The vile o'brien stirred up homophobic hatred in the guise of religious "teaching" despite being a gay man himself. Even worse, he abused his position of authority to molest priests that were subordinate to him. The Catholic Church is a busted flush. Surely any thinking follower can see the hypocrisy of their outbursts against LGBT people? How many other priests are closeted gays? How can you trust a single word any of these people says?
Above this, of course, all religion is absurd anyway so the sooner all these cults die out the better.
T
thecraw
Guest
Therefore I assume you agree that the credibility has been lost?
It is very ironic how O'Brien came to grief.
It is very ironic how O'Brien came to grief.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
They never had any credibility with me. (Nor does any other religion BTW)
My GF would be catholic if the church didn't consider her an "abomination". Her mum I think despite being a god-fearing woman no longer wants anything to do with them.... With each generation they become less relevant. Sadly I expect they will always be around during my lifetime but one day they will just be a historical curiosity.
My GF would be catholic if the church didn't consider her an "abomination". Her mum I think despite being a god-fearing woman no longer wants anything to do with them.... With each generation they become less relevant. Sadly I expect they will always be around during my lifetime but one day they will just be a historical curiosity.
chrisd
Major Champion
I have stopped believing for some long time. I take the view that if those in the Vatican who are nearer to their God than most, don't believe that they will go to hell for their wrongdoing, then there is clearly no belief in their religious doctrine at their level and therefore what they preach is clearly just a method of control of the masses.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Did i hit a nerve there?
Not detracting or shifting just highlighting that's its in all our lives regardless of what organisation we are involved with, im not finding this personal or offensive (yet).
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
It's also 'responsible' for a lot of what is right in the world....
But, yes I am basically a non-believer but remain aware that faith [in a positive way] is part of a large number of peoples lives...
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Still waiting....
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Crikey where to start eh ..
The catholic religion is not about the clergy tho Greig , the catholic religion is about all its people all these people cant be brainwashed , im not nieve enought to say bad things dont happen , but when a catholic person does wrong it is treated as a person , but a catholic priest/priests do wrong its the whole religion thats tarnished ..
im a believer of the catholic religion and make no secret of it , have i abided by every rule or law , i surely have not , i chose to keep catholosism [sp] as a religion when i was old enough to decide because i think the fundamentals of it are to be good & kind , ok some bad people have tarnished & abused this , but blame the people & the people who protected them , not the religion as a whole
Faith in the people running the church is questionable , faith in my religion is not
I thought it was a bout faith ?
well said
Agreed total Martin , but peole choose to see the actions of the bad ones over the actions of very many good ones , good news & positive news dont make headline tho
Very well written mate
Its called respecting othere beliefs & wishes & it in turn earns the respect of others back ..
To sum it up i supose , im not brainwashed i see & am aware of the bad thinks done in the name of my religion , i think they are wrong and quiet possibly carried out by a person hiding (&yes been hidden) behind a religion , not a religious person
Religion is evolving even still , ordinary people are not going to be bullied anymore and that is a very good thing , ordinary catholics are becoming more involved in running their churches & wont be bullied by the clergy anymore , the clergy are seeing this & it is becoming the peoples church with priests as the organisers as such . .
The catholic religion is not about the clergy tho Greig , the catholic religion is about all its people all these people cant be brainwashed , im not nieve enought to say bad things dont happen , but when a catholic person does wrong it is treated as a person , but a catholic priest/priests do wrong its the whole religion thats tarnished ..
im a believer of the catholic religion and make no secret of it , have i abided by every rule or law , i surely have not , i chose to keep catholosism [sp] as a religion when i was old enough to decide because i think the fundamentals of it are to be good & kind , ok some bad people have tarnished & abused this , but blame the people & the people who protected them , not the religion as a whole
your right good healthy discussion should never be shut down , if some people get out of hand it will be closed , who do we blame ? all the forumers or the few that might get out of hand ?
Faith in the people running the church is questionable , faith in my religion is not
I thought it was a bout faith ?
well said
Agreed total Martin , but peole choose to see the actions of the bad ones over the actions of very many good ones , good news & positive news dont make headline tho
Very well written mate
Its called respecting othere beliefs & wishes & it in turn earns the respect of others back ..
To sum it up i supose , im not brainwashed i see & am aware of the bad thinks done in the name of my religion , i think they are wrong and quiet possibly carried out by a person hiding (&yes been hidden) behind a religion , not a religious person
Religion is evolving even still , ordinary people are not going to be bullied anymore and that is a very good thing , ordinary catholics are becoming more involved in running their churches & wont be bullied by the clergy anymore , the clergy are seeing this & it is becoming the peoples church with priests as the organisers as such . .
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GreiginFife
Money List Winner
While I don't disagree Bill, the Catholic Church is an organisation as well as a religion. Where an organisation incurs wrong doing by those at the top then the whole organisation feels it (look at Fred Goodwin, his inept leadership tarnished pretty much the whole of RBS through wrong doing - albeit on a different scale). The members of the organisation (in this case the followers) suffer as a result.
Brainwashing was maybe a throw-away term I used, but no one can deny that cultural conditioning is a result of any religion. People are told what to do/not do at a moral level or face, for all intents and purposes, non-proven consequences. I'm not here to debate the existence of hell (or heaven) but any organisation that looks to exert a level of control through unfounded consequence is culturally conditioning the people that follow.
Again, just my opinion on the matter.
I, personally, don't believe in a God (or Gods) as there is no tangible evidence to suggest that there is. Faith is all and well, but it is the actions that individuals and organisations perpetrate in the "name" of that faith that I struggle with.
T
thecraw
Guest
No nerve with me. Just find it laughable that you can't answer the OP about the damage done by yet another sex scandle yet you use a childish dig at my occupation as an out? Why not stick with the post and start a separate thread if you feel so strongly about other organisations and wrong doings.
The whole hypocrisy of the situation is what really gets me.
Religion is a guidance and a faith. You either buy into it and respect its beliefs and adhere to them and practice it or you don't. You can't pick and choose what parts you will have faith in and what parts youll blatantly abuse or ignore. Religion is a taboo topic that I appreciate and accept. Like all walks in life you'll get good and bad and a mixed reaction based on personal experiences and interaction.
Religion offers many positives however its also clearly a mask to hide behind.
That's my take and view.
(I still don't get where my occupation comes into it?)
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Very well put Greig & i couldnt disagree with anything you said , its nice to have a debate or conversation about a topic & accept that even though we are on other sides of the fence on it , we can still respect others thoughts on the subject
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
:thup:
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Sheer hypocrisy by O' Brien, he should be off to hell in a hand cart.
At least Dunbar will be spared his 'preaching' now.
Why they do not allow priests to marry is beyond me.
This is 2013 not 1313.
At least Dunbar will be spared his 'preaching' now.
Why they do not allow priests to marry is beyond me.
This is 2013 not 1313.
bigslice
Tour Winner
years ago one of our local priests chucked it and married our religious education teacher and never to be seen again. was a shame as he was a gud badminton player
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
The thing is Catholicism is not the religion, Christianity is. Catholicism is just a medium.
Dare I say, just like sky. If you don't like it, go to virgin, BT.
If people are not happy with the catholic religion, but you still believe in the Christian ideals and God, try another one. Off the top of my head, you could become a pentacostalist,presbyterian,anglican,baptist or one of many others.
The Catholic church has many problems, I can patently see. I think one of them is the "from on high" nature of how it is run. Everything seems to be decreed from the pope, bishops etc. There hasn't traditionally been a democratisation from the ordinary catholics in the street upwards. In this day and age, this probably needs addressing, as democratisation is becoming a bigger factor in people's everyday lives. Whether politics, management meetings in the workplace, committees at a golf club, and more.
People want a say more.
Marriage - it should be allowed within the catholic church IMHO. Gay priests - bring it on, most probably are anyway.
It does need to modernise, but as long as it doesn't lose it's Christian teachings and beliefs, there should be no problem.
Dare I say, just like sky. If you don't like it, go to virgin, BT.
If people are not happy with the catholic religion, but you still believe in the Christian ideals and God, try another one. Off the top of my head, you could become a pentacostalist,presbyterian,anglican,baptist or one of many others.
The Catholic church has many problems, I can patently see. I think one of them is the "from on high" nature of how it is run. Everything seems to be decreed from the pope, bishops etc. There hasn't traditionally been a democratisation from the ordinary catholics in the street upwards. In this day and age, this probably needs addressing, as democratisation is becoming a bigger factor in people's everyday lives. Whether politics, management meetings in the workplace, committees at a golf club, and more.
People want a say more.
Marriage - it should be allowed within the catholic church IMHO. Gay priests - bring it on, most probably are anyway.
It does need to modernise, but as long as it doesn't lose it's Christian teachings and beliefs, there should be no problem.
sydney greenstreet
Journeyman Pro
Credibility in the person(s) yes but not the faith, O'Brien was our Parish priest (Bathgate) back in the late 70's-early 80's as was an assistant priest Fr Mullen who is being investigated by the Vatican under abuse claims too, as an alter boy back then I never heard any of my pals say anything and never experienced anything either, just remember our faith is not in these men but in God.
Yerman
Journeyman Pro
Too late! I remember when there was standing room only, last time I went you had to walk to shake hands with your neighbour adn a week later the priest ran off with a local teacher.
Fader
Tour Winner
Way I look at this is no matter what the organisation whether its the Catholic Church, police force, NHS, Armed forces, government or BBC which are all massive in their own right by sheer weight of numbers there will be people in all of them that are of questionable character whether that be drugs, sexual predators, financial rip off merchants or simply those that cover up all of these things. IMO it's not the organisations that should be questioned or what they stand for but merely the man or woman guilty of the crime.
To blame the short comings and questionable nature of these individuals on the organisation as a whole is completely wrong. Is it the fault of the religion and faith this man does what he does no it's the fault of the man himself and the few that hid it for him. Catholics faith is not in the priest, bishop, cardinal or pontiff it's in the religion of Christianity itself and what it means.
It's easy to say to be catholic is to be brainwashed an to believe in something evil and find fault but it amazes me how when something a man does the whole religion is questioned an everything good it stands for and does for people around the world is overlooked to sensationalise the bad. It's a bit like me saying my Dr is crap which she is and I have suffered at her misdiagnosis before and then saying as result the whole of the NHS is crap because she is! It doesn't work like that there will be bad apples in every bunch but it isn't the fault of the many that the few are rotten to the core!
I believe the Catholic Church should let gay and lesbians become priests, that a person sexuality is irrelevant we all have a right to be who we want and with who we choose it doesn't change who we are as a person. I think priests should be able to marry and have a family if they so choose and that the church needs to modernise and learn to evolve. But despite all of the shortfalls of it and what I feel needs to change I'm happy to admit I'm catholic and remain one through my own choosing and not just because I was raised as one, my belief is in the good it does many and in a god. I may get ridiculed on here and elsewhere on occasion for believing but we all have a right to our beliefs and that if you choose not to believe then fine by me each to their own.
But come on let's not tarnish everyone with the same brush whether they believe or not.
To blame the short comings and questionable nature of these individuals on the organisation as a whole is completely wrong. Is it the fault of the religion and faith this man does what he does no it's the fault of the man himself and the few that hid it for him. Catholics faith is not in the priest, bishop, cardinal or pontiff it's in the religion of Christianity itself and what it means.
It's easy to say to be catholic is to be brainwashed an to believe in something evil and find fault but it amazes me how when something a man does the whole religion is questioned an everything good it stands for and does for people around the world is overlooked to sensationalise the bad. It's a bit like me saying my Dr is crap which she is and I have suffered at her misdiagnosis before and then saying as result the whole of the NHS is crap because she is! It doesn't work like that there will be bad apples in every bunch but it isn't the fault of the many that the few are rotten to the core!
I believe the Catholic Church should let gay and lesbians become priests, that a person sexuality is irrelevant we all have a right to be who we want and with who we choose it doesn't change who we are as a person. I think priests should be able to marry and have a family if they so choose and that the church needs to modernise and learn to evolve. But despite all of the shortfalls of it and what I feel needs to change I'm happy to admit I'm catholic and remain one through my own choosing and not just because I was raised as one, my belief is in the good it does many and in a god. I may get ridiculed on here and elsewhere on occasion for believing but we all have a right to our beliefs and that if you choose not to believe then fine by me each to their own.
But come on let's not tarnish everyone with the same brush whether they believe or not.
