Bunker flooded - Relief?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bunker is flooded but not completely and not GUR. I can take free relief if my ball or stance are in the water, but for the relief I must drop my ball in the bunker…not nearer the hole. Tick. If I can do that but cannot take a stance in the bunker to address the ball - does that matter? I don’t think so…just tough if my stance has to be out of the bunker to play my ball dropped taking free relief that is in the bunker…as in normal play.

But what happens if the surrounds to the bunker are saturated - does that matter. Is it a different relief event if I take free relief from water in a bunker that means my stance is out of the bunker but on saturated ground, I could then take relief for my stance and hence move my ball (and myself) out of the bunker to a point that the ground is not saturated - or is the saturated ground part of the original relief event - I have to find a point to drop my ball in the bunker where my stance is not in the saturated ground outside of the bunker.

Don’t think I’ve really explained that very well but think my drift is clear. But I don’t know the ruling on what to do…saturated ground around flooded bunker.

 

[Steven Rules]

But what happens if the surrounds to the bunker are saturated - does that matter.

No. The ball is in the bunker, so follow the rules for abnormal course conditions in the bunker (Rule 16.1c) regardless of where the stance is.

Free relief when dropping the ball in the bunker (no closer to the hole than the original position of the ball). Penalty relief to take relief outside the bunker.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Bunker is flooded but not completely and not GUR. I can take free relief if my ball or stance are in the water, but for the relief I must drop my ball in the bunker…not nearer the hole. Tick. If I can do that but cannot take a stance in the bunker to address the ball - does that matter? I don’t think so…just tough if my stance has to be out of the bunker to play my ball dropped taking free relief that is in the bunker…as in normal play.

But what happens if the surrounds to the bunker are saturated - does that matter. Is it a different relief event if I take free relief from water in a bunker that means my stance is out of the bunker but on saturated ground, I could then take relief for my stance and hence move my ball (and myself) out of the bunker to a point that the ground is not saturated - or is the saturated ground part of the original relief event - I have to find a point to drop my ball in the bunker where my stance is not in the saturated ground outside of the bunker.

Don’t think I’ve really explained that very well but think my drift is clear. But I don’t know the ruling on what to do…saturated ground around flooded bunker.

I like your thinking on this, as a ( legit) way of making the best of relief from flooded bunker.
But I think Steven ‘s view has stymied you.
However, logically, I can see where you are coming from.Elsewhere on the course, your thinking would be ok.
I.e.when taking relief from one situation and you find that that puts you in another position from which you are entitled to relief, you can finish up in a very much better place. E.g. In the middle of a stand of staked saplings you keep going from one tree to another till you get to the edge of the fairway , and then that happens to be standing water , so you keep going till the fairway comes along .

And on that basis, your argument holds water. ( pun not intended)

But, Steven is right…………or ……..is he?

 

[Steven Rules]

I.e.when taking relief from one situation and you find that that puts you in another position from which you are entitled to relief, you can finish up in a very much better place. E.g. In the middle of a stand of staked saplings you keep going from one tree to another till you get to the edge of the fairway , and then that happens to be standing water , so you keep going till the fairway comes along .

The difference between this scenario and the OP is that (presumably) all these sequential scenarios involve the ball in the general area (Rule 16.1b). Whereas SILH's ball is in the bunker, so all free relief options must remain in the bunker (Rule 16.1c).

 

[Swinglowandslow]

The difference between this scenario and the OP is that (presumably) all these sequential scenarios involve the ball in the general area (Rule 16.1b). Whereas SILH's ball is in the bunker, so all free relief options must remain in the bunker (Rule 16.1c).

Yes, I have read 16((1)c, but I am wondering about the OP scenario.( which isn’t specifically covered, I don’t think)
Question: suppose the OP scenario is such that there is no water outside the bunker.
Could the player take his stance outside the bunker and play the ball having dropped it where the OP says?

Maybe not, I.e. complete relief has not been taken.
However,
If the answer is yes, then when the ball is dropped ( to the position from which it is played), then it is in play.

So, ball is in play , but stance is interfered with by water and thus relief from this now new situation, which is in the general area, is allowed.?
.
I can see the logic here, and it could be that it is such a rare combination of circumstances that it affords a way out of a tricky situation
Which side of the fence are you on, Hugh.?

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes, I have read 16((1)c, but I am wondering about the OP scenario.( which isn’t specifically covered, I don’t think)

The scenario is specifically covered by 16.1c. The ball is in a bunker; it is irrelevant which area of the course the feet and stance are in.

Maybe not, I.e. complete relief has not been taken.

As you are already familiar with 16.1c, my recommendation is that you read again the second bullet point of 16.1c(1) and the definition of 'point of maximum available relief'. (Addendum. You might also want to look again at the opening words to 16.1c which say that the rule applies 'If a player’s ball is in a bunker and there is interference by an abnormal course condition on the course...')

If the player wants free relief, the relief area must be in the bunker - either complete relief or maximum available relief. There is no free relief option outside the bunker (unless the Committee declares - via a Local Rule - the bunker to be GUR in the general area, and that is not the case in the OP scenario).

 

[Tashyboy]

Irrespective of the rules and I am not going to argue with them. The problem for me is that if a bunker is flooded and it is not GUR and I mean all of it.Then someone at the course is lazy. I say that because our course has possibly 28-30 bunkers. And some of them are disgusting. We as a fuddle decide before our round bunkers are GUR. Some are flooded, others under repair

 

[rulie]

Irrespective of the rules and I am not going to argue with them. The problem for me is that if a bunker is flooded and it is not GUR and I mean all of it.Then someone at the course is lazy. I say that because our course has possibly 28-30 bunkers. And some of them are disgusting. We as a fuddle decide before our round bunkers are GUR. Some are flooded, others under repair

Obviously, not playing by the Rules and no posting of scores for handicap purposes.

 

[Tashyboy]

Obviously, not playing by the Rules and no posting of scores for handicap purposes.

That is correct but as stated it is a fuddle and everyone plays by the same rules.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Note what you are saying Steven, but to some extent I am playing Devils Advocate, however, can you say simply,
If in OP scenario there was no water on the surrounds, is it permissible to stand outside the bunker to play the ball which is in the bunker. It seem to me that doing that is not taking complete relief and therefore shouldn’t be permitted.

I.e. If the ball and the stance cannot be in the bunker ,then the ball should be played outside the bunker under penalty.

I know that players can and do stand outside ( fully or partially) to play a ball in a bunker, but that is ok if it is where it came to lie, and a drop is not being made somewhere different from its original position in the bunker.

 

[salfordlad]

Note what you are saying Steven, but to some extent I am playing Devils Advocate, however, can you say simply,
If in OP scenario there was no water on the surrounds, is it permissible to stand outside the bunker to play the ball which is in the bunker. It seem to me that doing that is not taking complete relief and therefore shouldn’t be permitted.

I.e. If the ball and the stance cannot be in the bunker ,then the ball should be played outside the bunker under penalty.

I know that players can and do stand outside ( fully or partially) to play a ball in a bunker, but that is ok if it is where it came to lie, and a drop is not being made somewhere different from its original position in the bunker.

I don't follow this. If ball is in bunker in temp water and stance is outside the bunker to play from that original position, the player is entitled to free relief in the bunker. Total relief here simply means ball is in correct relief area and there is no continuing interference with the area of temp water that enabled relief, it is irrelevant if feet are now outside the bunker to play the next stroke.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't follow this. If ball is in bunker in temp water and stance is outside the bunker to play from that original position, the player is entitled to free relief in the bunker. Total relief here simply means ball is in correct relief area and there is no continuing interference with the area of temp water that enabled relief, it is irrelevant if feet are now outside the bunker to play the next stroke.

I agree.

But the situation is that having taken relief from the water in the bunker and ball dropped in the bunker as required, I find that my stance has to be outside the bunker, but in taking that stance i find that it is on saturated or flooded General Area ground. I would be thinking I’d normally get free relief from that saturated ground, but in moving to the nearest dry ground for my stance I’d be taking my ball out of the bunker. That doesn’t feel right but sometimes the rules can work to my advantage in curious ways.

I ask this question as I have absolutely no idea what the rules would permit me to do about my stance on saturated ground in this scenario - which may indeed be the same question had I not had to take relief from water in the bunker, but the ball was in the bunker.

 

[salfordlad]

I agree.

But the situation is that having taken relief from the water in the bunker and ball dropped in the bunker as required, I find that my stance has to be outside the bunker, but in taking that stance i find that it is on saturated or flooded General Area ground. I would be thinking I’d normally get free relief from that saturated ground, but in moving to the nearest dry ground for my stance I’d be taking my ball out of the bunker. That doesn’t feel right but sometimes the rules can work to my advantage in curious ways.

I ask this question as I have absolutely no idea what the rules would permit me to do about my stance on saturated ground in this scenario - which may indeed be the same question had I not had to take relief from water in the bunker, but the ball was in the bunker.

This scenario you paint is an entirely new situation. You can play the ball with your feet in the water or you can take relief because you now have stance interference for temp water. But the free relief area is limited to the bunker (because your ball is in the bunker), or you can take BOL relief outside the bunker for 1 penalty stroke.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This scenario you paint is an entirely new situation. You can play the ball with your feet in the water or you can take relief because you now have stance interference for temp water. But the free relief area is limited to the bunker (because your ball is in the bunker), or you can take BOL relief outside the bunker for 1 penalty stroke.

Ah right. I see…I think…a stance on saturated ground with ball in a bunker on dry sand has different relief conditions/options than a stance on saturated ground with ball in the GA on dry ground.

So for former scenario can I move to nearest dry ground around the bunker where I can take a dry stance and then take a drop in the bunker - hoping it stays out of any water in the bunker - (even though where I drop the ball in the bunker will not be the original nearest point of relief in the bunker had it been in water).

My head hurts…I wish I hadn’t started…

 

[Steven Rules]

ball dropped in the bunker as required, I find that my stance has to be outside the bunker, but in taking that stance i find that it is on saturated or flooded General Area ground. I would be thinking I’d normally get free relief from that saturated ground

You are absolutely entitled to free relief from the saturated ground (assuming it meets the definition of temporary water) but, because the ball is in a bunker, the relief area must also be in the same bunker.

 

[Steven Rules]

But the situation is that having taken relief from the water in the bunker and ball dropped in the bunker as required, I find that my stance has to be outside the bunker, but in taking that stance i find that it is on saturated or flooded General Area ground. I would be thinking I’d normally get free relief from that saturated ground, but in moving to the nearest dry ground for my stance I’d be taking my ball out of the bunker. That doesn’t feel right

It doesn't feel right because it isn't right.

Let me try amd simplify it further.

If there is interference (ball, stance, or area of intended swing) from an abnormal course condition:
*If the ball is in the general area, the relief area must be in the general area.
*If the ball is in a bunker, the relief area must be in the same bunker.

Full stop. Period. End of story.

No need to mention or consider where the abnormal course condition is - as long it is on the course.

The available relief options - or lack thereof - are dictated solely by which area of the course the ball is in.

As a further illustrative example, if the ball is in a penalty area, but the stance is just outside the penalty area in temporary water, there is no free relief either inside or outside the penalty area. (Rule 16.1a(2)). It is dictated by where the ball is, not by where the abnormal course condition is.

 

[Steven Rules]

It seem to me that doing that is not taking complete relief and therefore shouldn’t be permitted.

The requirement that overrides all others is that, for a ball in a bunker, the relief area (for free relief) must also be in the same bunker. Unlike in the general area, the requirement for 'complete relief' in a bunker is not absolute. When complete relief is not possible, the reference point is the 'point of maximum available relief' and the relief area must still be in the bunker.

Whether the stance is in or out of the bunker, and whether the abnormal course condition is in or out of the bunker is irrelevant to the whole discussion. (But where the stance is in relation to the abnormal course condition can be quite relevant. )

 

[salfordlad]

Ah right. I see…I think…a stance on saturated ground with ball in a bunker on dry sand has different relief conditions/options than a stance on saturated ground with ball in the GA on dry ground.

So for former scenario can I move to nearest dry ground around the bunker where I can take a dry stance and then take a drop in the bunker - hoping it stays out of any water in the bunker - (even though where I drop the ball in the bunker will not be the original nearest point of relief in the bunker had it been in water).

My head hurts…I wish I hadn’t started…

Steven's got you covered. Let me address it a different way. Your ball is in the bunker on dry sand. But there is some interference with stance (eg temp water) or immovable obstruction in area of intended swing, you get relief for the ball into a relief area in the bunker. It is irrelevant which area of the course that temp water or immovable obstruction is.

 

[KenL]

Did this need thread to be so difficult?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Did this need thread to be so difficult?

I didn't understand the constraints on free relief when my stance is in an abnormal ground condition in the GA but my ball is in a bunker.

I think that I now understand that, in my scenario, I can seek the nearest dry stance position then drop my ball in the bunker in relation to that stance position…if there is no dry position for my stance then I find the stance position of best relief…I think…

The alternative to the above is that I get no free relief for my stance being in an abnormal ground condition in the GA as a consequence of my taking free relief for my ball being in water in the bunker.