Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 1147]

As I said in my post, I have two teenage sons, we have intelligent debates about politics and their views are straight out of the old Corbyn notebook....Thatcher evil, Brexit evil/racist, capitalism bad. Unions good (I agree with that btw) Etc etc.

Must be a current issue. Or a local one.

Regards unions, I don’t like them, purely for the fact I don’t believe they should be necessary. But as they are still needed to protect workers rights, they are a necessity. In reality employment law, when properly devised and implemented should render them redundant.

 

[MegaSteve]

It’s a while since I was at school, but I can’t remember any teachers expressing their political views- even when studying political history!

Interesting... Been fifty years since I left school and I can fully recollect one teacher telling us how wrong Enoch was.... And, I am supposed to be the incoherent incontinent one...

 

[Fade and Die]

Must be a current issue. Or a local one.

Regards unions, I don’t like them, purely for the fact I don’t believe they should be necessary. But as they are still needed to protect workers rights, they are a necessity. In reality employment law, when properly devised and implemented should render them redundant.

It’s not a taught subject, it’s just the views of the teachers that they pick up.
Re unions that’s a whole other subject, they shouldn’t be necessary but are.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

It’s not a taught subject, it’s just the views of the teachers that they pick up.
Re unions that’s a whole other subject, they shouldn’t be necessary but are.

Sorry, I thought you meant politics classes. 👍
Agree re unions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes, I am sure everyone who has had to live in a undemocratic country thought that things that happen there are a tad over dramatic. This stuff isn’t myth. It happened and is happening now. But if you want to play with fire for the sake of letting others interfere with the running of your country, crack on.
I can’t see how there can be changes to A50 other than to delay it or revoke it. The only way to revoke it “democratically” would be to have another vote and we all know the only reason why that is even being discussed.
I want a second referendum = my side lost and I want another go.

You are overreacting- we are in no way anything like the Nazi Germany, North Korea , Iraq etc etc -

Our democracy is alive and well , it’s not going anywhere and it will continue to be that way - to even try and bring them in as some sort of comparison is pretty poor.

The extremes on both sides are getting worse by the day for goodness sake

We the public have always been able to have our say - that’s not going to change for goodness sake

Impressional Kids get the opinion of very left wing teachers at school which they take as gospel...That’s hardly education. More like brainwashing!
In my house we have lively (and enjoyable) debates at the Sunday lunch table with my 17 and 14 year old sons.

Seriously ? Can you judge every single school and teacher the same ? Not in any way.

Why do people like yourself fail to see that others opinions maybe just as valid as yours even if you don’t agree with it ? What’s wrong with people who think on the left side of politics ? It’s just different - doesn’t mean it’s wrong .

The lack of tolerance is getting worse and this thread is just a small picture of the UK these days - trench’s dug , hats on - and no change of opinion

 

[Sweep]

General election turnouts by % haven't been over 70% since 1997, so voter apathy is not new. A few angry old leavers with hollow threats never to vote again is probably for the greater good tbh but lets face it they'll be first along in 2022 to back the furthest right candidate available.

I have to say this is a shocking post.
Firstly, any loss of confidence in our democratic process would come at a time when, following the Scottish Independence Referendum, the electorate was becoming engaged again. Following scandals like MP’s expenses, voter apathy was hardly surprising.
Secondly, you assume that most leave voters were right wing. This is simply and utterly wrong and frankly an insult to many voters in Labour heartlands who voted leave in their millions. You also seem to have conveniently swallowed the “all leavers are old” nonsense hook, line and sinker.
Thirdly, no-one is threatening not to vote. They just won’t. What would be the point? If you vote in a single choice, In/Out referendum and you vote with the majority and then not only is your choice not enacted, its is reversed, what would be the point of bothering to vote in any ballot? If this decision is not enacted, then why would any other? Make no mistake. This is a precedent. If this vote is not enacted, it opens up a whole Pandora’s box for the future.
And lastly and most importantly, if you are not worried about people of opposing political views to you not voting then you damn well should be. If you think that this is good because you get your way on this issue, you are dead wrong. Other than trial by ballot box at the next election, a strong opposition is the only thing that keeps any government in check. As the old saying goes “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

 

[Fade and Die]

You are overreacting- we are in no way anything like the Nazi Germany, North Korea , Iraq etc etc -

Our democracy is alive and well , it’s not going anywhere and it will continue to be that way - to even try and bring them in as some sort of comparison is pretty poor.

The extremes on both sides are getting worse by the day for goodness sake

We the public have always been able to have our say - that’s not going to change for goodness sake


Seriously ? Can you judge every single school and teacher the same ? Not in any way.

Why do people like yourself fail to see that others opinions maybe just as valid as yours even if you don’t agree with it ? What’s wrong with people who think on the left side of politics ? It’s just different - doesn’t mean it’s wrong .

The lack of tolerance is getting worse and this thread is just a small picture of the UK these days - trench’s dug , hats on - and no change of opinion

You are guilty of hypocrisy in the highest degree there. I am disagreeing amicably with another poster. What’s your problem? That it’s different from yours?

 

[harpo_72]

Even as someone that supported Remain I find this kind of thinking twisted. A logical extension of this is that 2.5 years after the date of your requested second referendum we will again have a new generation of voters who would also want their say so we'd then need a third referendum. And 2.5 years after that another generation of voters wanting their say. So using your reasoning we'd need to have a referendum every 3 years.

Unless of course you're suggesting that we should just have the one more referendum and as long as the vote is to remain we can stop because we'll have got the answer that you want.

No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge. Why should we not confirm there is a majority for this decision.
I think I know and why we have shouts about democracy etc.. although I did enjoy Rees mogg saying the queen should shut parliament down to stop them voting, it was a touch ironic.
Still haven’t seen a credible deal yet. Not long now.

 

[Sweep]

You are overreacting- we are in no way anything like the Nazi Germany, North Korea , Iraq etc etc -

Our democracy is alive and well , it’s not going anywhere and it will continue to be that way - to even try and bring them in as some sort of comparison is pretty poor.

The extremes on both sides are getting worse by the day for goodness sake

We the public have always been able to have our say - that’s not going to change for goodness sake


Seriously ? Can you judge every single school and teacher the same ? Not in any way.

Why do people like yourself fail to see that others opinions maybe just as valid as yours even if you don’t agree with it ? What’s wrong with people who think on the left side of politics ? It’s just different - doesn’t mean it’s wrong .

The lack of tolerance is getting worse and this thread is just a small picture of the UK these days - trench’s dug , hats on - and no change of opinion

Yup, take democracy for granted and see what you get. And when that democracy fails, what then?
The United Kingdom DEMANDS democracy from other nations. It has happened today. How could we continue to do so if we can’t deliver a democratic decision ourselves?
It’s an old cliche, but nonetheless true. The world looks to us as one of the great democracies.
You are a military man? How many votes did Galtieri win the Argentinian election by? How many votes did Saddam get? You talk about trenches. Why do we keep having to fight dictatorships?
If our democracy fails, what then?
If we go against this decision, how could you possibly say our democracy is alive and well?

 

[ger147]

Another fun day ahead in the HoC's tomorrow, will be interesting to see what position we're in by the end of the day.

Yvette Cooper's amendment is a change to the law so not sure what happens if that gets passed as any extension of A50 also needs EU agreement.

 

[Old Skier]

No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge.

It only has no relevance to those that didn't get the result they wanted. We've had two votes covering the subject in the last couple of years, how many do you want.

As to your no facts or knowledge, if you go by the media we're still in the same position now so going by your logic there is no way we should be having a third pop at it.

 

[harpo_72]

It only has no relevance to those that didn't get the result they wanted. We've had two votes covering the subject in the last couple of years, how many do you want.

As to your no facts or knowledge, if you go by the media we're still in the same position now so going by your logic there is no way we should be having a third pop at it.

Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesn’t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really don’t mind how many you have, I think you don’t want one because you’ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project clueless.

 

[User62651]

I have to say this is a shocking post.
Firstly, any loss of confidence in our democratic process would come at a time when, following the Scottish Independence Referendum, the electorate was becoming engaged again. Following scandals like MP’s expenses, voter apathy was hardly surprising.
Secondly, you assume that most leave voters were right wing. This is simply and utterly wrong and frankly an insult to many voters in Labour heartlands who voted leave in their millions. You also seem to have conveniently swallowed the “all leavers are old” nonsense hook, line and sinker.
Thirdly, no-one is threatening not to vote. They just won’t. What would be the point? If you vote in a single choice, In/Out referendum and you vote with the majority and then not only is your choice not enacted, its is reversed, what would be the point of bothering to vote in any ballot? If this decision is not enacted, then why would any other? Make no mistake. This is a precedent. If this vote is not enacted, it opens up a whole Pandora’s box for the future.
And lastly and most importantly, if you are not worried about people of opposing political views to you not voting then you damn well should be. If you think that this is good because you get your way on this issue, you are dead wrong. Other than trial by ballot box at the next election, a strong opposition is the only thing that keeps any government in check. As the old saying goes “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

Unworthy post perhaps but the labour voters were struggling most under Camerons austerity, they were given a chance to give Dave a kicking.....and guess what they took it. Deny all u like, everything Brexit is a Tory idea and a Tory problem, especially hard right Tories, has been for decades. All those Labour voters that gave Blair 3 GE wins never had an issue with EU, anti Tory protest is a good part of Brexit result, not all of it but a significant part. Brexit is primarily a right wing movement.

 

[Sweep]

No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge. Why should we not confirm there is a majority for this decision.

Before the referendum, the last time we voted on EEC, EC, EU membership was 1975. Yet the “union” has changed beyond recognition since then. I am guessing you weren’t in favour of the 2016 referendum and are probably in the “we shouldn’t have been asked” camp. But now a vote from 2.5 years ago is out of date.
You should also realise that everyone had just messed about for the past 2.5 years. No progress has been made. If we vote leave again it will be the same and you will be saying the same thing in August 2021.

 

[ColchesterFC]

No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge. Why should we not confirm there is a majority for this decision.
I think I know and why we have shouts about democracy etc.. although I did enjoy Rees mogg saying the queen should shut parliament down to stop them voting, it was a touch ironic.
Still haven’t seen a credible deal yet. Not long now.

Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesn’t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really don’t mind how many you have, I think you don’t want one because you’ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project clueless.

But what about in 2.5 years time when we then have more facts and knowledge of what being in the EU entails? Wouldn't we then need another referendum as that result would have no relevance? What if an EU army was created? What if there was a move towards greater federalism? What if the position of EU finance minister was created that could over-rule individual countries budget decisions? If we have another referendum as you want then would that have any relevance in 2.5 years time?

You wouldn't give a stuff about the new generation of people that have become eligible to vote in the last 2.5 years if they didn't agree with your opinion. It's not about democracy or the fact that denying a second referendum would be undemocratic. It's because the result of the first referendum didn't go your way and you can't accept it.

 

[Sweep]

Unworthy post perhaps but the labour voters were struggling most under Camerons austerity, they were given a chance to give Dave a kicking.....and guess what they took it. Deny all u like, everything Brexit is a Tory idea and a Tory problem, especially hard right Tories, has been for decades. All those Labour voters that gave Blair 3 GE wins never had an issue with EU, anti Tory protest is a good part of Brexit result, not all of it but a significant part. Brexit is primarily a right wing movement.

If you believe the EU is only a Tory issue you are sadly mistaken. Labour voters voted for Blair because he was the Labour choice. Just like Tories voted for Heath and Major. Leaving the EU was not an option.
It was the Tories who took us into the EEC.
You cannot seriously believe all those Labour voters voted leave as a protest?
The whole point about Brexit is that it crosses the political divide. Just look at Boles/ Cooper and the rest of Parliament.
Google Europe A Nation. You will see it was a fascist ideal. I can’t see Oswald Mosley voting for Brexit.

 

[harpo_72]

But what about in 2.5 years time when we then have more facts and knowledge of what being in the EU entails? Wouldn't we then need another referendum as that result would have no relevance? What if an EU army was created? What if there was a move towards greater federalism? What if the position of EU finance minister was created that could over-rule individual countries budget decisions? If we have another referendum as you want then would that have any relevance in 2.5 years time?

You wouldn't give a stuff about the new generation of people that have become eligible to vote in the last 2.5 years if they didn't agree with your opinion. It's not about democracy or the fact that denying a second referendum would be undemocratic. It's because the result of the first referendum didn't go your way and you can't accept it.

Stop grasping at straws ... you have no argument you have been counted on all points.

 

[Old Skier]

Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesn’t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really don’t mind how many you have, I think you don’t want one because you’ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project clueless.

The only shouting is coming from some Remainer, like I said, you've had two bites of the cherry in the last 2 1/2 years (I can only presume you voted in the last election) how many more goes do you want,

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The only shouting is coming from some Remainer, like I said, you've had two bites of the cherry in the last 2 1/2 years (I can only presume you voted in the last election) how many more goes do you want,

Sorry but two bites of the cherry ? We have had one vote on the future of the UK in the EU - just one. ( well apart from one decades ago )

 

[ColchesterFC]

Stop grasping at straws ... you have no argument you have been counted on all points.

I'm not grasping at anything. In case you missed it in a previous post, I supported, and still support, Remaining in the EU. But it appears that you can't or are unwilling to answer any of the points I raised. Just be honest enough to admit that you simply want another referendum to overturn the result of the first one because you didn't get your way and as soon as you get your way you are happy for the question to stop being asked.