Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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#Hors Limite

Picking up on a few typos is pathetic and reveals your vitriolic manner. I made clear my preferences with Brexit and jobs but you seem to have a nasty big chip on your shoulder and a filter on your comprehension. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
 
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Hacker Khan said:
OK, to answer your questions. You were on about going against the referendum result and I said that that is not an option, they are not going to completely ignore it so the only way the government can be accused in any way of going against the referendum result is a second referendum. If we get a deal or leave without one then we will not be going against the referendum result.
Yes remain may well lose the second referendum once the choices are clearly spelt out and people are more aware of the consequences.
Have you considered that a some voters see the second referendum as one potential way out of the current stalemate, however the support for it in parliament is decreasing.
The question would have to reflect the options on the table at that time. If there is a clear consensus for one option when people are aware of what it means and the consequences then that is what should enacted.
True democracy is whatever people want it to be, having a referendum where the two options are what 48% of the people that voted at the time were not in favour of isn't true democracy to me.
I have never really been in favour of a second election and would much rather see a deal being done. But if the only choice is between leaving with no deal and a second referendum, whilst I can see the potential problems a second election would cause, the fact we are having one would not cause me to lose all faith in democracy. Where as going out without a deal would cause me to lose all faith in politicians to do what I feel is best for the future prosperity of the nation. And I think a lot of politicians know that.

We are in a situation where a majority in parliament does not agree with the public on a referendum. This is unique in our history and we are currently trying to find a way out of it and whoever decided to execute the referendum in the way they did needs to hang their head in shame. I feel both sides have been let down. However I feel based on how it was conducted and what we have learned since that democracy does not start and stop with the Brexit referendum. If I am honest bot based propaganda and manipulation of social media but hostile interests to me is a much bigger threat to democracy that a second referendum would be based on what we have experienced since the vote. But I acknowledge that others may disagree.
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I agree that we are in a unique situation in that those we have elected to Parliament are at odds to the electorate. However, it is the electorate that counts. Much is being said about parliamentary deadlock. It matters not. The electorate gave their decision and it should be enacted.
Those who are calling for a second referendum are simply and desperately trying to get the decision reversed. That’s it. There are no others reasons behind it. Those in parliament who were elected on a manifesto of enacting the referendum result, voted to trigger A50 etc etc should do their job, fulfill their duty and get on with it. If it’s so unpalatable to them, they should resign.
All we have experienced since the vote is project fear upon more project fear and yet the reality seems very different.
If democracy doesn’t start and end with a simple in / out vote then where does it?
Quite apart from all the other consequences of reversing the decision I outlined, no-one seems to have considered what if the EU goes too far? What if we want to get out in the future. If we can’t leave now, when we have had a campaign, project fear, government propaganda paid for by the tax payer through every door in the country, told that leavers are thick, racist and can’t spell (on this forum today) and we still vote to leave, then when can we?
If a vote of this magnitude is ignored or reversed, what is the point in voting? Your vote will count for nothing. I live 100yds from my polling station. I wouldn’t even waste the shoe leather. As a man in the street what do you have if you don’t have democracy? The answer is nothing. Don’t take my word for it, just ask people in North Korea, or read books on life in communist Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Iraq. You know, those kind of places where they tend to kill millions of their own people and anyone with an opinion tends to disappear.
Anyone remainer who is daft enough to think that our membership of the EU is worth risking democracy for needs their heads testing.
 
Sweep said:
I agree that we are in a unique situation in that those we have elected to Parliament are at odds to the electorate. However, it is the electorate that counts. Much is being said about parliamentary deadlock. It matters not. The electorate gave their decision and it should be enacted.
Those who are calling for a second referendum are simply and desperately trying to get the decision reversed. That’s it. There are no others reasons behind it. Those in parliament who were elected on a manifesto of enacting the referendum result, voted to trigger A50 etc etc should do their job, fulfill their duty and get on with it. If it’s so unpalatable to them, they should resign.
All we have experienced since the vote is project fear upon more project fear and yet the reality seems very different.
If democracy doesn’t start and end with a simple in / out vote then where does it?
Quite apart from all the other consequences of reversing the decision I outlined, no-one seems to have considered what if the EU goes too far? What if we want to get out in the future. If we can’t leave now, when we have had a campaign, project fear, government propaganda paid for by the tax payer through every door in the country, told that leavers are thick, racist and can’t spell (on this forum today) and we still vote to leave, then when can we?
If a vote of this magnitude is ignored or reversed, what is the point in voting? Your vote will count for nothing. I live 100yds from my polling station. I wouldn’t even waste the shoe leather. As a man in the street what do you have if you don’t have democracy? The answer is nothing. Don’t take my word for it, just ask people in North Korea, or read books on life in communist Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Iraq. You know, those kind of places where they tend to kill millions of their own people and anyone with an opinion tends to disappear.
Anyone remainer who is daft enough to think that our membership of the EU is worth risking democracy for needs their heads testing.
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The comparisons are a touch over dramatic- if there is to be any change on Art 50 and a change of thinking then I suspect there will be a second democratic vote of some sort. So democracy will still continue
 
harpo_72 said:
I think we have constant quotes about the 17million who voted leave. What we fail to mention is some of those reasons were not about leaving but protest votes.
Then 2.5 years down the line we have a new generation of voters who want their say and the quotes and forgive me if these are wrong are that 70% are in favour of remain. Additionally there is the loss of voters due to natural causes or setting up elsewhere.
So the point of a second referendum is justified.
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Even as someone that supported Remain I find this kind of thinking twisted. A logical extension of this is that 2.5 years after the date of your requested second referendum we will again have a new generation of voters who would also want their say so we'd then need a third referendum. And 2.5 years after that another generation of voters wanting their say. So using your reasoning we'd need to have a referendum every 3 years.

Unless of course you're suggesting that we should just have the one more referendum and as long as the vote is to remain we can stop because we'll have got the answer that you want.
 
Sweep said:
I agree that we are in a unique situation in that those we have elected to Parliament are at odds to the electorate. However, it is the electorate that counts. Much is being said about parliamentary deadlock. It matters not. The electorate gave their decision and it should be enacted.
Those who are calling for a second referendum are simply and desperately trying to get the decision reversed. That’s it. There are no others reasons behind it. Those in parliament who were elected on a manifesto of enacting the referendum result, voted to trigger A50 etc etc should do their job, fulfill their duty and get on with it. If it’s so unpalatable to them, they should resign.
All we have experienced since the vote is project fear upon more project fear and yet the reality seems very different.
If democracy doesn’t start and end with a simple in / out vote then where does it?
Quite apart from all the other consequences of reversing the decision I outlined, no-one seems to have considered what if the EU goes too far? What if we want to get out in the future. If we can’t leave now, when we have had a campaign, project fear, government propaganda paid for by the tax payer through every door in the country, told that leavers are thick, racist and can’t spell (on this forum today) and we still vote to leave, then when can we?
If a vote of this magnitude is ignored or reversed, what is the point in voting? Your vote will count for nothing. I live 100yds from my polling station. I wouldn’t even waste the shoe leather. As a man in the street what do you have if you don’t have democracy? The answer is nothing. Don’t take my word for it, just ask people in North Korea, or read books on life in communist Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Iraq. You know, those kind of places where they tend to kill millions of their own people and anyone with an opinion tends to disappear.
Anyone remainer who is daft enough to think that our membership of the EU is worth risking democracy for needs their heads testing.
Click to expand...

An excellent post sir. I wish our politicians could read it and then ask them for comment.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
The comparisons are a touch over dramatic- if there is to be any change on Art 50 and a change of thinking then I suspect there will be a second democratic vote of some sort. So democracy will still continue
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General election turnouts by % haven't been over 70% since 1997, so voter apathy is not new. A few angry old leavers with hollow threats never to vote again is probably for the greater good tbh but lets face it they'll be first along in 2022 to back the furthest right candidate available.:rolleyes:
 
Im having trouble understanding the uk on this one guys both the people and the govt ..
Firstly ur government seem.to think.they are or can call the shots .. ur looking for agreement in a parliment that cant r wont agree within to go to europe with a deal . seems to me ye have cart in front of horse, wasting time on an agreement that wont be accepted in brussels naybe go to brussels first see if u give something can u get something

. Ur the husband thats leaving the angry wife trying to get out of the pre nup and expect her to let u decide what happens next on ur terms


Can.i ask 2 questions of the leavers please ...

Is what u were promised and voted leave on the strenght of being delivered ?

Would u have voted leave on the uncertinty that is there now r want more clarity

Technicaly 3 questions sorry
 
ColchesterFC said:
Even as someone that supported Remain I find this kind of thinking twisted. A logical extension of this is that 2.5 years after the date of your requested second referendum we will again have a new generation of voters who would also want their say so we'd then need a third referendum. And 2.5 years after that another generation of voters wanting their say. So using your reasoning we'd need to have a referendum every 3 years.

Unless of course you're suggesting that we should just have the one more referendum and as long as the vote is to remain we can stop because we'll have got the answer that you want.
Click to expand...
Bit like elections for government... point is ( yes lots of full stops) that referendum isn’t of any value
 
maxfli65 said:
General election turnouts by % haven't been over 70% since 1997, so voter apathy is not new. A few angry old leavers with hollow threats never to vote again is probably for the greater good tbh but lets face it they'll be first along in 2022 to back the furthest right candidate available.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
What was the turnout in the referendum?
Why are you so acrimonious, is it necessary, other than getting a 'Like' from LP.
 
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bladeplayer said:
Im having trouble understanding the uk on this one guys both the people and the govt ..
Firstly ur government seem.to think.they are or can call the shots .. ur looking for agreement in a parliment that cant r wont agree within to go to europe with a deal . seems to me ye have cart in front of horse, wasting time on an agreement that wont be accepted in brussels naybe go to brussels first see if u give something can u get something

. Ur the husband thats leaving the angry wife trying to get out of the pre nup and expect her to let u decide what happens next on ur terms


Can.i ask 2 questions of the leavers please ...

Is what u were promised and voted leave on the strenght of being delivered ?

Would u have voted leave on the uncertinty that is there now r want more clarity

Technicaly 3 questions sorry
Click to expand...
No
Yes
No
 
harpo_72 said:
Bit like elections for government... point is ( yes lots of full stops) that referendum isn’t of any value
Click to expand...

So why would your suggested second referendum be any different? If that also isn't of any value then there's no point going the expense and hassle of holding it.

Let's face facts. The only reason you want a second vote is because your side lost the first one. It all boils down to you refusing to accept the result and trying to come up with ever more desperate excuses to get the result reversed.
 
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