Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[user2010]

You're dodging it Phil, and very poorly at that. Who said anything about the UK armed forces no longer existing? You did. You're shifting the goal posts to try and get out from under your statement that UK forces would never be commanded by the EU, which has very clearly proven to be untrue.

Maybe something you can relate to. Who is the overall commander of the EUFOR? Who was the overall commander of that mission when it first went into Bosnia? How many different commanders have there been, and from how many different countries?

As you can see from below, Major-General Leakey was overall commander for 2 years. UK armed forces have been commanded for a further 13 years by commanders from other countries.

No. Nation Rank Name Period 1

United KingdomMajor GeneralDavid Leakey02.12.2004 – 06.12.2005 2

ItalyMajor GeneralGian Marco Chiarini06.12.2005 – 05.12.2006 3

GermanyRear AdmiralHans-Jochen Witthauer05.12.2006 – 04.12.2007 4

SpainMajor GeneralIgnacio Martín Villalaín[6]04.12.2007 – 04.12.2008 5

ItalyMajor GeneralStefano Castagnotto04.12.2008 – 03.12.2009 6

AustriaMajor GeneralBernhard Bair04.12.2009 – 06.12.2011 7

AustriaMajor GeneralRobert Brieger06.12.2011 – 03.12.2012 8

AustriaMajor GeneralDieter Heidecker03.12.2012 – 17.12.2014 9

AustriaMajor GeneralJohann Luif17.12.2014 – 24.03.2016 10

AustriaMajor GeneralFriedrich Schrötter24.03.2016 – 28.03.2017 11

AustriaMajor GeneralAnton Waldner28.03.2017 – 28.03.2018 12

AustriaMajor GeneralMartin Dorfer28.03.2018 – present

Why can't you, when presented with irrefutable evidence from the EU's own website referencing EU regs, admit you're wrong?

Maybe because his version of Google is always right, perhaps?

 

[SocketRocket]

I want a peoples vote = My vote lost so I want another one

We didn't understand what we were voting for = My vote lost so I want another one

A lot of Old people have died since the referendum = My vote lost so I want another one

Extend Article 50 = My vote lost so I want another one

Halt article 50 = My vote lost so I want another one

I respect the referendum result, but = My vote lost so I want another one

We must not allow a No Deal = My vote lost so I want another one

Leave told lies on the side of the bus = My vote lost so I want another one

Leave voters are Racist = My vote lost so I want another one

 

[SocketRocket]

EBay sellers who place an advert/photo for a 'smart plug' at £1.99, only to find the smart plugs are £12.99 and £1.99 is for a travel adapter or a 3 month warranty .

eg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_sop=15&_nkw=smart plug&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

Is it something to do with Brexit?

 

[bobmac]

Is it something to do with Brexit?

Oops, I made a mistake, wrong thread.
See, it's easy

 

[drdel]

It is perfectly obvious and logical that if a vote is held then the only reason anyone would wish to go through the hassle and incur the massive cost again and re-run the process is because they disliked the first result. QED.

 

[Fade and Die]

You can tell how desperate the remainers are getting now – all the way down from Philip Hammond encouraging Airbus to issue a doomsday warning earlier this week to Kent Constabulary last week putting their schools on “lockdown” due to traffic jams IF….. you know the rest.

Here’s another beauty.....

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-planners-could-use-martial-law-against-civil-disobedience-11619088

 

[3offTheTee]

Oops, I made a mistake, wrong thread.
See, it's easy

V EASY Bob!!

 

[hors limite]

I assume this was addressed to me although it doesnt say so.

Where exactly did I reveal how economically impervious I will be to any downside or take pleasure in fellow citizens to lose jobs. You appear to be forming an opinion based on personal prejudices rather than fact which is not a good foundation for debate.

When I give my opinion on a subject then it is my considered view, I do not need to defend it to you or anyone, you can challenge it if you wish but it would be better if your challenge gave a contrary view rather than relying on some personal insults and slight of character.

Since you have not attempted to read through my posts and understand my viewpoint correctly then I feel under no obligation to reiterate it. However a quick precey is that my preference is for a free trade agreement with the EU which would solve the Irish border issue, a payment that covered our reasonable ongoing obligations and full cooperation on security and technology. I do not want a second referendum or to stay a member of the EU, I believe we must carry out the will of the democratic vote. Failing this my next option is to leave without a formal exit agreement and then negotiate a series of mutually beneficial agreements where possible. I do not advocate anyone losing their jobs but understand the reality of business and change. It may well be that some people will lose jobs, that happens every day and for a mirriad of reasons, just like new jobs are created every day for a mirriad of reasons, the world keeps turning and day follows night.

So, that's my condensed opinion, if you dislike it then I cant help that and unless you wish to engage in a grown up debate on the issues rather than your previous onslaught then I have nothing more to discuss with you.

Good day.

To return to your seeming economic insulation from bumps in the road. Not long ago, to persuade us what a clever chap you are, you posted an outline of your job experience which suggested that you must be very well paid. It does make me wonder though as your spelling in this and other posts is pretty hopeless and doesn't reflect the sort of education that might go with your suggested CV - mirriad/myriad, precey/precis.
Job losses. Once again, you admit that in order to deliver your Brexit omelette, you are willing to break the eggs that are UK jobs. I hate to have to remind you that job losses were not promised by Johnson, Gove, Farage and the rest of your charlatans. How the story has now changed with Rees Mogg telling us that a no deal would be " survivable". The same man who said that it might take 50 years to see any benefits.
Your deluded view of your Brexit is the one put forward 2 years ago, the benefits of the EU without the obligations. Which bit of" it's not available" do you not understand?

 

[Foxholer]

Seems it isn't only the Leavers that don't understand;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_an...-gets-death-threats-over-anti-brexit-receipts

Before the deflections start, Brexit wasn't about stopping immigration, it was about controlling it; allowing in people who want to contribute to and become part of the community, not just take from it.

Well, that's a restaurant I won't be frequenting! Misuse of his position imo - as well as the (fairly standard but equally offensive) addition of 'discretionary' service charge!

 

[SocketRocket]

To return to your seeming economic insulation from bumps in the road. Not long ago, to persuade us what a clever chap you are, you posted an outline of your job experience which suggested that you must be very well paid. It does make me wonder though as your spelling in this and other posts is pretty hopeless and doesn't reflect the sort of education that might go with your suggested CV - mirriad/myriad, precey/precis.
Job losses. Once again, you admit that in order to deliver your Brexit omelette, you are willing to break the eggs that are UK jobs. I hate to have to remind you that job losses were not promised by Johnson, Gove, Farage and the rest of your charlatans. How the story has now changed with Rees Mogg telling us that a no deal would be " survivable". The same man who said that it might take 50 years to see any benefits.
Your deluded view of your Brexit is the one put forward 2 years ago, the benefits of the EU without the obligations. Which bit of" it's not available" do you not understand?

You have ignored my comments to suit your embittered and prejudiced view. Since you only seem to be interested in petty point scoring and personal attack then I will treat your comments with the contempt they deserve.

 

[Kellfire]

Well, that's a restaurant I won't be frequenting! Misuse of his position imo - as well as the (fairly standard but equally offensive) addition of 'discretionary' service charge!

“Misuse of his position”. Haha. Good one.

 

[hors limite]

Leavers often complain of being accused of a lack of intelligence. I commend to you a video of the Brexit champion, Tim Martin, chairman of Wetherspoons.

.

 

[Old Skier]

Leavers often complain of being accused of a lack of intelligence. I commend to you a video of the Brexit champion, Tim Martin, chairman of Wetherspoons.

.

Two hypercritical wasters together

 

[Foxholer]

Seems it isn't only the Leavers that don't understand;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_an...-gets-death-threats-over-anti-brexit-receipts

Before the deflections start, Brexit wasn't about stopping immigration, it was about controlling it; allowing in people who want to contribute to and become part of the community, not just take from it.

Fine words, but impossible to, practically, implement!

'Controlling it' is as much as can, practically, be done imo.

 

[Foxholer]

You can tell how desperate the remainers are getting now – all the way down from Philip Hammond encouraging Airbus to issue a doomsday warning earlier this week to Kent Constabulary last week putting their schools on “lockdown” due to traffic jams IF….. you know the rest.

Here’s another beauty.....

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-planners-could-use-martial-law-against-civil-disobedience-11619088

Indeed, it seems fairly much a 'manufactured' story to me.

However, the 1st video in the article did highlight, at least according to 1 ex Head of MI6 (Dearlove), how May's deal could mean 'parts of UK's Security could be placed in the foreign hands'. That's certainly not what Brexit is about - and, as noted in the same vid, May appears to be attempting to find a workaround, if not a solution.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Fine words, but impossible to, practically, implement!

'Controlling it' is as much as can, practically, be done imo.

Extremely difficult to achieve, yes, but if we don't try we'll never know for sure.

Certainly better than having an open door policy to certain "occupations", primarily from Eastern Europe. Maybe if the EU had stuck at being a trading bloc rather than a federal republic it wouldn't have been a problem...

 

[Sweep]

And leave with a no deal would be the absolute last choice of many others, including a majority of parliament. Statements like 'no one would ever vote again' are the leavers equivalent of some remainers very worst case project fear statements. The alternatives are do a deal, come out with no deal or a second referendum. No one is saying anyone should just ignore the referendum and forget it ever happened. And if people see a second referendum as 'ignoring the result' then fair enough, that's their prerogative. But there are many others that if faced with the choice of coming out with no deal or having a second referendum once we know the alternatives would prefer a second referendum.

And if there is a second referendum then that may well lead to some increased interest in extremist parties. But I would argue that that genie is already out of the bottle in many western societies, and there are many other political, social and economic factors that need addressing to stop the rise of extremist politics and a second vote would only play a relatively small part in that.

I think you are confusing not leaving with a second referendum. I didn’t mention a second referendum.
Have you considered that remain might lose a second referendum?
Have you considered that the majority of voters can see right through the calls for a second referendum as a way to go against the democratic vote?
Have you considered what the question would be? How could it be phrased so as not to split the leave vote?
How about leave with this deal or leave with no deal? How about the option to remain was not on the ballot paper? That would be true democracy. After all, the decision to leave was made 31 months ago. The people of the United Kingdom have already made that decision.
Would you be in favour of that second referendum or does it not seem so appealing now?

 

[drdel]

I can recall a time well before the EU, and the Common Market when we raced cars in France, Germany Italy and other European countries. A few bits of paper; a passport was all that was needed. Even with a truck full of cars and spares there was no real delays crossing borders.

My employer shipped stuff internationally without pain or numerous office staff.

Similarly we never had any bother taking continental holidays.

Have we all become whimps?

 

[Hacker Khan]

I can recall a time well before the EU, and the Common Market when we raced cars in France, Germany Italy and other European countries. A few bits of paper; a passport was all that was needed. Even with a truck full of cars and spares there was no real delays crossing borders.

My employer shipped stuff internationally without pain or numerous office staff.

Similarly we never had any bother taking continental holidays.

Have we all become whimps?

No but you are kind of playing into the stereotype of the old leave person going on about times 40 years ago and wanting to return to those days. Where as the world has changed significantly in those decades, some of it for the better and some for the worse.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I think you are confusing not leaving with a second referendum. I didn’t mention a second referendum.
Have you considered that remain might lose a second referendum?
Have you considered that the majority of voters can see right through the calls for a second referendum as a way to go against the democratic vote?
Have you considered what the question would be? How could it be phrased so as not to split the leave vote?
How about leave with this deal or leave with no deal? How about the option to remain was not on the ballot paper? That would be true democracy. After all, the decision to leave was made 31 months ago. The people of the United Kingdom have already made that decision.
Would you be in favour of that second referendum or does it not seem so appealing now?

OK, to answer your questions. You were on about going against the referendum result and I said that that is not an option, they are not going to completely ignore it so the only way the government can be accused in any way of going against the referendum result is a second referendum. If we get a deal or leave without one then we will not be going against the referendum result.
Yes remain may well lose the second referendum once the choices are clearly spelt out and people are more aware of the consequences.
Have you considered that a some voters see the second referendum as one potential way out of the current stalemate, however the support for it in parliament is decreasing.
The question would have to reflect the options on the table at that time. If there is a clear consensus for one option when people are aware of what it means and the consequences then that is what should enacted.
True democracy is whatever people want it to be, having a referendum where the two options are what 48% of the people that voted at the time were not in favour of isn't true democracy to me.
I have never really been in favour of a second election and would much rather see a deal being done. But if the only choice is between leaving with no deal and a second referendum, whilst I can see the potential problems a second election would cause, the fact we are having one would not cause me to lose all faith in democracy. Where as going out without a deal would cause me to lose all faith in politicians to do what I feel is best for the future prosperity of the nation. And I think a lot of politicians know that.

We are in a situation where a majority in parliament does not agree with the public on a referendum. This is unique in our history and we are currently trying to find a way out of it and whoever decided to execute the referendum in the way they did needs to hang their head in shame. I feel both sides have been let down. However I feel based on how it was conducted and what we have learned since that democracy does not start and stop with the Brexit referendum. If I am honest bot based propaganda and manipulation of social media but hostile interests to me is a much bigger threat to democracy that a second referendum would be based on what we have experienced since the vote. But I acknowledge that others may disagree.