Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Old Skier]

How does that change anything ? It was still "UK Armed Forces" involved within Joint Operations

I believe you and your high ranking mates said that over all control was the U.K. Government. I am just pointing out that when forces have been committed they are under the overall command of whoever has been designated as commander on the ground and they don't necessarily have to be or, have been British.

Highlighted bit - been happening for years in NATO exercises or conflicts etc - Many Nations Under Joint Operations.

And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military- the UK Armed Forces will always be under overall control by the UK government - many laws that keep it that way regardless what the EU security blah blah may say

 

[Sweep]

So is being a non Tory an issue?
Also can remainers and leavers really be in the same political party? Seriously different fundamental beliefs.

Being a non-Tory is not an issue.
Both Labour and the Tories have leavers and remainers.
It’s one issue, albeit very large. Traditionally the parties are separated by belief in socialism or capitalism which are much bigger differences. The hope is that on the EU issue is resolved they can get back to normal.

 

[Foxholer]

They are requiring the whip, or in fighting with each other. If they all believed in the one goal, they would have delivered it.

There's 650 of them! It would be ridiculous to believe that all had the same opinion (well, pair of opinions as it's the Opposition's role to oppose legislation) about every item of legislation/government business!

And as delegates, as opposed to representatives of their electorates, their individual opinions may need action by Whips to get legislation through!

This is actually an area where, I believe, The House of Lords is 'more honest' than The Commons. While there are Whips in HoL, their role is markedly different to Whips in The Commons. And Lords are generally much more 'independent'.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I believe you and your high ranking mates said that over all control was the U.K. Government. I am just pointing out that when forces have been committed they are under the overall command of whoever has been designated as commander on the ground and they don't necessarily have to be or, have been British.

You are talking about operations or exercises or conflicts etc - as I have already said that’s been happening for decades under NATO or the UN - it doesn’t mean that the UK Forces are no longer under government control

 

[MegaSteve]

Being a non-Tory is not an issue.
Both Labour and the Tories have leavers and remainers.
It’s one issue, albeit very large. Traditionally the parties are separated by belief in socialism or capitalism which are much bigger differences. The hope is that on the EU issue is resolved they can get back to normal.

Been that long I am not sure we'll remember what 'normal' was...

 

[Sweep]

As per your 2nd sentence, first show me where I stated you 'said' that. My words were 'seems to be suggesting'.

You are posting twaddle - again! Please desist!

Btw. To clarify what I meant by May 'probably undermined' - as, on re-reading it, I can see how it could be misinterpreted as deliberately so - the simple fact that she intervened with the Chequers Plan overruling the negotiators, weakened (undermined) their negotiating position. But I don't believe she had any intention of sabotaging them. Do you? That seems to be the implication of this, especially the bit in bold...



A pretty typical 'conspiracy theory' imo - the word 'suggesting' being indicative!

And I am the one posting twaddle!
You say I suggested May sabotaged the negotiations when I did no such thing. I do not believe May sabotaged the negotiations. I never said she did. This is a miserable attempt at deflection because you can’t defend your own post and you can’t show me where I said or suggested May sabotaged anything. I never used the word.
You are the one posting twaddle please desist.
You criticise me for using the word “suggesting” after using it yourself.
Big tip: when you have dug yourself into a hole, stop digging.

 

[Foxholer]

I believe you and your high ranking mates said that over all control was the U.K. Government. I am just pointing out that when forces have been committed they are under the overall command of whoever has been designated as commander on the ground and they don't necessarily have to be or, have been British.

Highlighted bit - been happening for years in NATO exercises or conflicts etc - Many Nations Under Joint Operations.

And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military- the UK Armed Forces will always be under overall control by the UK government - many laws that keep it that way regardless what the EU security blah blah may say

Seems to me that you are 'arguing' over semantics! And are both correct, but about slightly different things!

When troops etc are, or are preparing/ready to be, in action they are under the control of the designated Commander, wherever that person comes from.

UK Government is quite entitled to withdraw UK troops from 'campaigns', so indeed has 'overall' control of them!

 

[Sweep]

You’re right, I’m a non-Tory remainer!
Agreed, I don’t think anything will keep me happy, save for remaining.
But given a choice of leaving outright or leaving with the May deal, I’ll take no deal.
Her deal is just staying without the benefits of staying. Which is just ridiculous!

Amazing how the Brexit issue can have people from opposing polical beliefs agreeing with each other. I agree with your post.

 

[Sweep]

They are requiring the whip, or in fighting with each other. If they all believed in the one goal, they would have delivered it.

Sounds like an advert for a UKIP government.

 

[Foxholer]

And I am the one posting twaddle!
You say I suggested May sabotaged the negotiations when I did no such thing. I do not believe May sabotaged the negotiations. I never said she did. This is a miserable attempt at deflection because you can’t defend your own post and you can’t show me where I said or suggested May sabotaged anything. I never used the word.
You are the one posting twaddle please desist.
You criticise me for using the word “suggesting” after using it yourself.
Big tip: when you have dug yourself into a hole, stop digging.

More twaddle, that's becoming tedious to refute!

I posted that you seem to be suggesting she sabotaged.... Kindly re-read! An apology for your selective quote would be in order! You didn't actually deny it, so please explain what you really meant in that post!

Kindly refer to your own tip - an appropriate word!

Btw. I agree with your first sentence!

 

[Old Skier]

You are talking about operations or exercises or conflicts etc -

Which as far as I am concerned is the only time it matters.

Who/what is in command can have a huge difference in your operational procedures and rules of engagement which is why, in the former Yugoslavia there was a huge sigh of relief when the blue and white was binned and the British Army started operating under NATO.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Amazing how the Brexit issue can have people from opposing polical beliefs agreeing with each other. I agree with your post.

Ok, that’s my position.
But what about you; which to you is the lesser of two evils: deal or remain (apologies if already stated, I either missed it or forgot)?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Really poor generic statement and even more so when you have constantly complained about SILH and his generic insulting statements.

I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals. That I think the decision to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous ). However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does. Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right? Actually wrong.

 

[SocketRocket]

Really poor generic statement and even more so when you have constantly complained about SILH and his generic insulting statements.

For my part we were having a bit of light hearted banter. Why don't you grow up.

 

[Dando]

I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals. That I think the decision to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous ). However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does. Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right? Actually wrong.

Maybe you need to harder as you’ve done a great job insulting those whose opinion is different to yours

 

[Old Skier]

Well I suppose using the word "potential " is at least starting to admit that it might not all be doom and gloom.

Have you considered what the "potential " of a federal Europe may have on the peace and stability on a paranoid Russian state.

 

[SocketRocket]

I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals. That I think the decision to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous ). However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does. Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right? Actually wrong.

I never mentioned you and neither do I in open posts. I have only ever replied to your postings directly to you. LP is is being childish by promoting animosity between us that doesn't exist.

 

[Foxholer]

It's also their job to enact the people's decision when you asked them for it

Only if they commit to doing so either beforehand (which they didn't) or subsequently (which they did).

For my part we were having a bit of light hearted banter. Why don't you grow up.

'Light hearted banter' mode didn't last long then! Shame.

 

[drdel]

Meanwhile the EU state that negotiations are over and the 'deal' is THE deal.

Except that Juncker has now been reported to have told the PM that if the UK will agree to a Customs Union he will renegotiate the 'backstop'.

So he's say HE will renegotiate! Except of course that as part of a customs union there would be no requirement for customs / border check. Does the guy live on this planet.

 

[SocketRocket]

Only if they commit to doing so either beforehand (which they didn't) or subsequently (which they did).


'Light hearted banter' mode didn't last long then! Shame.

With the original poster Yes. With someone else looking to score a silly point No.