Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

LOL - 'Arrogantly dismissive' being levelled at a Remain voter expressing real concerns with very little of substance coming the other way other the usual 'remoaner' jibes. The only utter joke - that isn't a joke - is the way that the concerns of those who hold these concerns are dismissed as irrelevant; that really serious issues such as those associated with the NI border are casually waved away with vague notions of agreements and mechanisms largely undefined. And yet all will be OK.

Well sorry - but when I heard last night a Tory MP of the ERG group dismissing the NI border issues as a shibboleth, and another trying to pretend that the ERG isn't the sort of grouping that could come up with a plan for Brexit - that their role is to 'advise' on what os acceptable and what is not - then I will continue to highlight where issues and concerns are raised around Brexit and especially a No Deal.

The FACT is that lead leavers (and the rest) do not have a plan or a clue about life after a No Deal Brexit - and why do they not write down their plan for a Deal or define how their No Deal will work? Because they know that as soon as they do that it will become evident that they do not have a workable plan - that it will become clear that they simply want out of the EU no matter what the damage to UK society and our economy...and that would be an utter joke if it were not totally disgraceful.

And the poster saying arrogantly dismissive is also a Remain voter, who would vote Remain again.

And lets be honest here you were dismissive of a poster who commented on the facts I'd posted around the balance of trade. FACTS may I remind you that you asked for in terms of the perceived benefits.

You often don't respond when FACTS are posted up, something I find doubly disappointing when you then post up Remain facts.

All I ask for is balance in your arguments and a recognition that there are truths and lies from both sides. Brexit will lead to a massive bump, and mitigating that will be immensely difficult. Out of the EU will lead to far more opportunities in areas of greater growth. Remaining is the soft option leading to reduced growth, but still growth. I understand and respect the ambitions of Leavers and, if it goes well, it will pay off handsomely. Its not a risk I would have taken.

 

[SocketRocket]

Not quite as simple as simply a Free Trade Agreement, as the commitment to an 'open border' that has been made by all parties (EU, UK, NI, SI) would also mean 'Freedom of Movement' as well! Somehow, I don't think you'd accept that!

Ive not heard anyone asking for that. Southern Irish citizens have always enjoyed free movement with the UK

 

[Hobbit]

Ive not heard anyone asking for that. Southern Irish citizens have always enjoyed free movement with the UK

Freedom of movement for citizens from both sides of the border has been guaranteed from long before the EEC/EU came into being. The Agreement is still live, and both the Republic of Ireland and the UK have said that Agreement will continue to be in force.

The waters are continually being muddied by the EU and by some Remainer, deliberately, and some by ignorance, who play the emotion card. The issue is trade, just as it is with the rest of the EU, although to be fair some businesses are X-border. Similar issues are experienced in Switzerland and Norway, but shock horror a work around is in place.

There's some great articles in the Irish papers about the issue, and there's some very interesting pieces written by several university professors. They don't call it a mountain out of a molehill but not far short.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

OK facts - Jacob Rees-Moff welcomes a forecast £1.1trillion No Deal boost to UK economy over 15yrs and so crashing out of the EU is clearly much more preferable to May's deal...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...eal-brexit-will-boost-uk-economy-11-trillion/

Who is this guy trying to kid?

Ahh right...

And the same folks will no doubt be buying into the 'food will be 8% cheaper' line - oh goodie. Meanwhile low or no import tariffs on food put UK food producers out of business - well at least that might cut down the number of Eastern Europeans required to man the food factories and fields and cut down the queues of UK food producer's trucks heading off to the EU.

All hail Economists for Free Trade as they say it's going to be great. The Independent certainly enjoyed the event today...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...baker-economists-for-free-trade-a8533021.html

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Freedom of movement for citizens from both sides of the border has been guaranteed from long before the EEC/EU came into being. The Agreement is still live, and both the Republic of Ireland and the UK have said that Agreement will continue to be in force.

The waters are continually being muddied by the EU and by some Remainer, deliberately, and some by ignorance, who play the emotion card. The issue is trade, just as it is with the rest of the EU, although to be fair some businesses are X-border. Similar issues are experienced in Switzerland and Norway, but shock horror a work around is in place.

There's some great articles in the Irish papers about the issue, and there's some very interesting pieces written by several university professors. They don't call it a mountain out of a molehill but not far short.

Fine - then it'll be sorted without no big deal - all the concerns are a load of baloney - drones and other techie stuff will make it happen. I'm glad it's not me keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Hobbit]

Fine - then it'll be sorted without no big deal - all the concerns are a load of baloney - drones and other techie stuff will make it happen. I'm glad it's not me keeping my fingers crossed.

I didn't say that, and you well know it. The concerns are very real, and an economic impact will be felt. BUT ITS NOT ARMAGEDDON!!

Nor is there any need to treat Leavers so disrespectfully. They have made a choice. In some cases for reasons I find abhorrent, but for others its with ambition and courage.

The NI border issue is real but it is being vastly over exaggerated by some, including Barnier who is using it quite disgracefully. Read what the Irish, both sides of the border, think. Get it from the horse's mouth, not some "in it for me" politician.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Not quite as simple as simply a Free Trade Agreement, as the commitment to an 'open border' that has been made by all parties (EU, UK, NI, SI) would also mean 'Freedom of Movement' as well! Somehow, I don't think you'd accept that!

SI ?
Never heard Ireland called that before.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I didn't say that, and you well know it. The concerns are very real, and an economic impact will be felt. BUT ITS NOT ARMAGEDDON!!

Nor is there any need to treat Leavers so disrespectfully. They have made a choice. In some cases for reasons I find abhorrent, but for others its with ambition and courage.

The NI border issue is real but it is being vastly over exaggerated by some, including Barnier who is using it quite disgracefully. Read what the Irish, both sides of the border, think. Get it from the horse's mouth, not some "in it for me" politician.

Latest 'from the horses mouth info' that I have seen indicates that the majority of Irish folk north and south of the border would like to see Ireland as a united country.

 

[Dellboy]

Latest 'from the horses mouth info' that I have seen indicates that the majority of Irish folk north and south of the border would like to see Ireland as a united country.

When did they hold a referendum on that then ? Or is the horses mouth just another voice from the remoaners or left wing press, as the only referendums I can remember are the one to get us out of the EU and for Scotland to vote to stay as a part of the UK.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Latest 'from the horses mouth info' that I have seen indicates that the majority of Irish folk north and south of the border would like to see Ireland as a united country.

Not according to a YouGov opinion poll conducted in June this year which showed support for unification in Northern Ireland at 42% (with support for remaining as part of the UK at 45%) and when I went to school that wasn't a majority.

http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-poll-3-4059433-Jun2018/

 

[woody69]

Isn't the big issue with NI the fact the Lords Amendment 25 to the Withdrawal Bill, passed by the Commons: no “physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls” on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, but with no deal we have to fall under WTO rules and they are in direct contrast that states a hard border must be present. Kind of leaves us between a rock and a hard border.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so today we hear from the ERG JR-M on the NI/EU border - no different from any border between countries he says - just the same. Err No Mr rees-Mogg. Tell us of another border either within the EU or between the EU and a neighbouring non-EU country that has the ECJ underpinning an equivalent of the Good Friday Agreement. There isn't one.

So all the talk about border control being 'away from the border' and using established technology and imaginatively modifying existing arrangements - even if it was workable and not unicorns flying to eat their pie-in-the-sky - just doesn't address the fundamental Irish border problem...which without resolution does make all the rest nice but subsidiary.

 

[SocketRocket]

Isn't the big issue with NI the fact the Lords Amendment 25 to the Withdrawal Bill, passed by the Commons: no “physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls” on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, but with no deal we have to fall under WTO rules and they are in direct contrast that states a hard border must be present. Kind of leaves us between a rock and a hard border.

WTO rules do not say we have to make a 'Hard' border.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

WTO rules do not say we have to make a 'Hard' border.

Can you provide a link to back up - and a definition of your 'hard' border - and if true as you assert (and I have little doubt), then explain why that would not matter in the context of the EU/UK border in Northern Ireland.

Meanwhile Moggie is to be interviewed by Eddie Mair shortly on LBC. Well I'll have a listen...and why would not anyone with an interest in the border issue want to hear what Moggie has to say on the matter - under questioning perhaps a little tougher than that of Nick Ferrari, Andrew Pierce or Nigel Farage.

 

[Hobbit]

Can you provide a link to back up - and a definition of your 'hard' border - and if true as you assert (and I have little doubt), then explain why that would not matter in the context of the EU/UK border in Northern Ireland.

There are no WTO rules for borders. However, if apples crossed the border from the Republic of Ireland into NI without border controls but apples entering the UK from, say, NZ received border checks NZ could complain to the WTO that Ireland was receiving 'favoured status.' That could occur if the UK had a trade agreement for apples, post-Brexit, with the EU but not with NZ. WTO doesn't have border rules, it has trading rules.

 

[woody69]

WTO rules do not say we have to make a 'Hard' border.

Under WTO rules, unless you're in a free trade bloc like the EU, you have to obey the "most favoured nation" rule. If the UK decides not to impose any tariffs on goods coming from the Republic of Ireland in to Northern Ireland, because it doesn't have a hard border to check these goods etc. that would mean the UK is essentially giving the EU complete open access. So its most favoured nation tariff is zero. That means we would have to give a zero tariff access to every single country in the WTO

 

[woody69]

London no longer world's most attractive financial centre - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...=topNews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=twitter

Bank of England officials trying to remain optimistic though it seems.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Leavers suddenly appear to have gone a bit quiet.

 

[chrisd]

Leavers suddenly appear to have gone a bit quiet.

Hello!

We're still here and still laughing at the rubbish you post 🤣

 

[drdel]

Leavers suddenly appear to have gone a bit quiet.

Just perhaps the same old dross and questions (to which there are no answers that you and others will accept) has become boringly predictable.