Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

Listen to Iain Dale (who has been a Tory candidate for Westminster and who is a staunch but realistic Brexiteer and is oft on Newsnight) on LBC explain why Rees-Mogg will never be leader of the Tory party - well certainly not in the near or foreseeable future. Some of his views are not acceptable to the majority of the Tory party - he just hides them behind a veneer of respectability created by a posh voice and fancy words.

If Barnier kicks this proposal into the long grass then a no deal will be more likely than not. Gird yourself for it and try not to self combust.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Andrew Marr: Is this what people voted for?

Michael Gove: Yes

Job's a good 'un then. Over to the EU.

Oops - maybe not such a good un for Davies.

 

[hors limite]

I must admit to finding the whole thing perplexing in many different ways. Let's just take the last week or so. The Tories are the party of business and enterprise. Big business , Airbus and the rest, signal their concerns about frictionless trade for the umpteenth time. Boris comes out with his ridiculous "eff business". Davis publicly offers no reassurance and from Airbus's subsequent repeated anxiety not in private either. It makes me wonder if the significant change of direction at Chequers towards an explicitly softer Brexit was triggered by a loss of patience from major big business Tory donors.Did they get tired of wasting their breath on Davis and threaten May directly, who knows?
If our turd polishing Foreign Secretary steps out of line again maybe, at last, it will be the sack.

 

[MegaSteve]

There's the thing government should be about the people not big business...
Unless, of course, big business wishes to pick up and pay the bill...
Which they've never shown interest in doing so...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I must admit to finding the whole thing perplexing in many different ways. Let's just take the last week or so. The Tories are the party of business and enterprise. Big business , Airbus and the rest, signal their concerns about frictionless trade for the umpteenth time. Boris comes out with his ridiculous "eff business". Davis publicly offers no reassurance and from Airbus's subsequent repeated anxiety not in private either. It makes me wonder if the significant change of direction at Chequers towards an explicitly softer Brexit was triggered by a loss of patience from major big business Tory donors.Did they get tired of wasting their breath on Davis and threaten May directly, who knows?
If our turd polishing Foreign Secretary steps out of line again maybe, at last, it will be the sack.

And not surprisingly - May's prevarications rob her of the pleasure.

And meanwhile JR-M says he cannot really comment or decide on the proposals as he has not seen the detail.

So Mr J-RM - how come the electorate were expected to make a 'binding' decision in the referendum vote, when we knew absolutely no detail whatsoever on what out might actually mean.

We were asked to make a decision that you, dear Mr JR-M; your acolytes and various anti-EU ideologues, tell as cannot be changed - even though we knew no detail whatsoever on what Out of the EU would mean in practical, rather than theoretical, terms. And yet you expect us to believe that you have not decided on the proposals as you can't without the detail. Yes. You really do take the electorate as mugs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The US Ambassador not quite so bullish on a bilateral deal

http://www.cityam.com/288941/us-ambassador-woody-johnson-warns-trade-deal-up-air-after

Just brilliant. Trump hates the EU and wants us out so that he can bully us into a trade deal that Puts America First. And as things are going we'll be going cap in hand to Trump and verily he will 'do' us.

 

[IanM]

Go and read the current terms of trade between the US and the EU.

Then laugh at your last posting. I did!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Go and read the current terms of trade between the US and the EU.

Then laugh at your last posting. I did!

Why laugh? What's so funny...

OK - so nothing to worry about. Well that's good to know. Don;t know why the press and media are getting exercised.

There is much about Brexit that I could be ping myself laughing about were it not so serious. I'm glad that you're so comfortable with how things are going and that any risk and concerns that some have of Trump doing one on us is a laughing matter.

Rather than a condescending laugh maybe you tell us all why it is a laughing matter - my researching it isn't going to help anyone else.

 

[drdel]

And not surprisingly - May's prevarications rob her of the pleasure.

And meanwhile JR-M says he cannot really comment or decide on the proposals as he has not seen the detail.

So Mr J-RM - how come the electorate were expected to make a 'binding' decision in the referendum vote, when we knew absolutely no detail whatsoever on what out might actually mean.

We were asked to make a decision that you, dear Mr JR-M; your acolytes and various anti-EU ideologues, tell as cannot be changed - even though we knew no detail whatsoever on what Out of the EU would mean in practical, rather than theoretical, terms. And yet you expect us to believe that you have not decided on the proposals as you can't without the detail. Yes. You really do take the electorate as mugs.

I have great difficulty taking these comments with any degree of seriousness.

The public were asked to decide on a strategic direction. It is not possible to present detail in a strategic plan. If you've had any experience of presenting strategic papers to a Board of Directors or their equivalent you will know that brevity and presenting the key points is critical.

Presenting the public with detail would have been impossible, as I suspect you know. ANY summary paper can easily be criticised as missing certain detail- its the oldest trick in the book by Director(s) etc. wishing to derail a meeting.

Obviously the post's comments simply hope to provoke reactions but in the Big Boys world of real decision making strategy is what the Generals do, Planning and detailed operational execution is left to the soldiers.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bill Cash this evening - "The problem is the Civil Service"

Well I am sure that all the Civil Servants that we hear are slogging away trying to make sense of this shambles will be delighted to hear that assessment.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I have great difficulty taking these comments with any degree of seriousness.

The public were asked to decide on a strategic direction. It is not possible to present detail in a strategic plan. If you've had any experience of presenting strategic papers to a Board of Directors or their equivalent you will know that brevity and presenting the key points is critical.

Presenting the public with detail would have been impossible, as I suspect you know. ANY summary paper can easily be criticised as missing certain detail- its the oldest trick in the book by Director(s) etc. wishing to derail a meeting.

Obviously the post's comments simply hope to provoke reactions but in the Big Boys world of real decision making strategy is what the Generals do, Planning and detailed operational execution is left to the soldiers.

Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs? A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible. I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.

 

[Hobbit]

Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs? A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible. I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.

You’ve spent 2 years telling every Leaver how stupid they are in the most supercilious manner ever, why stop now?

 

[Imurg]

Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs? A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible. I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.

Most of the General Public - yes!
I've been saying it since day 1
Most people don't read and can't understand the jargon used in basic terms and conditions used to sell you a fridge.
What chance have they both with the minutiae details involved in virtually every area of a Brexit deal? How many pages..?? 1000's? Get your head out of the clouds.
The Public were asked a simple question - Yes or No.
They weren't asked about any customs unions, hard borders or trade deals - just In or Out.
Out won in a fair and proper vote.
It's up to the Government of the day to produce an exit strategy that they feel is best for the Country.
We're in the position we are in because these career politicians, instead of getting on with it and producing a strategy, are jostling for position so they can climb another rung of the political ladder.
The whole thing is becoming a shambles because people couldn't accept the result of the referendum and have been trying to squeeze their own agenda into the workings thus delaying any agreement.
Without all the meanderings this deal could have been sorted by now. But too many are just looking to further their own careers or simply unwilling to accept a majority verdict.

 

[USER1999]

I must admit to finding the whole thing perplexing in many different ways. Let's just take the last week or so. The Tories are the party of business and enterprise. Big business , Airbus and the rest, signal their concerns about frictionless trade for the umpteenth time. Boris comes out with his ridiculous "eff business". Davis publicly offers no reassurance and from Airbus's subsequent repeated anxiety not in private either. It makes me wonder if the significant change of direction at Chequers towards an explicitly softer Brexit was triggered by a loss of patience from major big business Tory donors.Did they get tired of wasting their breath on Davis and threaten May directly, who knows?
If our turd polishing Foreign Secretary steps out of line again maybe, at last, it will be the sack.

So, do you not think that equivalent big business in Europe, such as BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, etc are not lobbying the EU for a deal for frictionless trade?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Most of the General Public - yes!
I've been saying it since day 1
Most people don't read and can't understand the jargon used in basic terms and conditions used to sell you a fridge.
What chance have they both with the minutiae details involved in virtually every area of a Brexit deal? How many pages..?? 1000's? Get your head out of the clouds.
The Public were asked a simple question - Yes or No.
They weren't asked about any customs unions, hard borders or trade deals - just In or Out.
Out won in a fair and proper vote.
It's up to the Government of the day to produce an exit strategy that they feel is best for the Country.
We're in the position we are in because these career politicians, instead of getting on with it and producing a strategy, are jostling for position so they can climb another rung of the political ladder.
The whole thing is becoming a shambles because people couldn't accept the result of the referendum and have been trying to squeeze their own agenda into the workings thus delaying any agreement.
Without all the meanderings this deal could have been sorted by now. But too many are just looking to further their own careers or simply unwilling to accept a majority verdict.

I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

But meanwhile feel free to blame those who think leaving will be disastrous for the chaos and mess that we are currently experiencing. That chaos and mess that has nothing to do with the impossibility of doing what has been promised by Leave, and that has been made worse by May's Red Lines. Yes - it's all the fault of the Remoaners.

 

[IanM]

I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

But meanwhile feel free to blame those who think leaving will be disastrous for the chaos and mess that we are currently experiencing. That chaos and mess that has nothing to do with the impossibility of doing what has been promised by Leave, and that has been made worse by May's Red Lines. Yes - it's all the fault of the Remoaners.

I see. You have nothing new to say have you? You don't think the "chaos" is caused by the PM refusing to enforce on the outcome of the Referendum and negotiate with the EU properly? Heck, she went to see Merkel last week to ask permission to put a proposal before the Cabinet!

 

[drdel]

Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs? A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible. I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.

Don't be silly, have a day off: every bit of research into surveys and the phsychology of questionaires proves that details cause confusion and produce results that are indecisive.

 

[Imurg]

I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

But meanwhile feel free to blame those who think leaving will be disastrous for the chaos and mess that we are currently experiencing. That chaos and mess that has nothing to do with the impossibility of doing what has been promised by Leave, and that has been made worse by May's Red Lines. Yes - it's all the fault of the Remoaners.

Brexiteers, Remoaners, Levers etc etc should have been left at the door the day after the referendum.
It's irrelevant.
The Country voted to leave. The worst thing they did was release details of which area voted what... irrelevant.
THE COUNTRY VOTED TO LEAVE
Ok, lots didn't like it but that's democracy for you.
Blaming people just leads to delays.
If everyone, that means EVERYONE, just got on with it and formulated the best way to leave the EU, it would have been done and dusted by now.
Too many people are hanging onto coat tails, trying to get their own way when the way has been decided.
Or do we have a situation where we have "referendum denial"..?
I'm absolutely staying out of all political threads from now on as nothing is said that hasn't been said before, nobody's mind is going to be changed and many are acting worse than 5 year olds in the playground.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

Are you not a fan of democracy?

People voted, a decision was made, govt is there to enforce the will of the people. I know this has been repeated time and time again but a decision was made, deal with it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Most of the General Public - yes!
I've been saying it since day 1
Most people don't read and can't understand the jargon used in basic terms and conditions used to sell you a fridge.
What chance have they both with the minutiae details involved in virtually every area of a Brexit deal? How many pages..?? 1000's? Get your head out of the clouds.
The Public were asked a simple question - Yes or No.
They weren't asked about any customs unions, hard borders or trade deals - just In or Out.
Out won in a fair and proper vote.
It's up to the Government of the day to produce an exit strategy that they feel is best for the Country.
We're in the position we are in because these career politicians, instead of getting on with it and producing a strategy, are jostling for position so they can climb another rung of the political ladder.
The whole thing is becoming a shambles because people couldn't accept the result of the referendum and have been trying to squeeze their own agenda into the workings thus delaying any agreement.
Without all the meanderings this deal could have been sorted by now. But too many are just looking to further their own careers or simply unwilling to accept a majority verdict.

spot on !!!
Anything involving politicians is always a shambles.