Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 23270]

That is not a plan - that s an objective.

And meanwhile the children in the cabinet pram are throwing their teddies out of their pram.

It is actually funny that you continue to pretend that it is those who voted to Remain are moaning and throwing our teddies out of the plan when in fact it is Leave voters who are doing just that.

Many who voted Remain simply continue to point out our concerns over the issues, problems and warnings that arise daily - and over the duplicity and the self-serving fundamentalist mindset of many prominent anti-EU leave supporters - a mindset that would see the UK out of the EU regardless of the damage to the economy and social fabric that might well result and that will affect the poorest of society whilst satisfying the comfortable smug wishes of a well-off few.

Have you ever considered that those who voted to leave weren't actually voting for a plan as such but just wanted out of the EU?

We are big boys, quite capable of standing on our own 2 feet.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Have you ever considered that those who voted to leave weren't actually voting for a plan as such but just wanted out of the EU?

We are big boys, quite capable of standing on our own 2 feet.

We were told there was a plan to leave ...I was repeatedly told here that there was a plan to leave and that I shouldn't be so naive to expect to be told of that plan.

And no matter how big you think that we are we are in a mess.

And I am afraid that you seem to forget that well over 16 million people did not want to Leave, and that our wishes and concerns should be recognised.

It isn't all about Leave voters as much as they like to think that it is - and it simply cannot be all about the wishes of Leave voters if there is to be any chance of reconciliation across the electorate on this in the future.

Some commentators expect this to run for many, many years in the way that the Irish independence question consumed governments of all hues from the early 19th Century until the 1920s.

 

[bobmac]

I'd do just exactly what I want having been the recipient of all sorts of scorn and vitriol over the last two years on this.

But OK - all is well. All is tickety-boo. Today's meeting at Chequers is to rubber stamp the plan that has been in place and followed for the last 2 years

One day someone will admit that there never was a plan. Clearly those here are not ready to make that admission - rather deflection and counter charge remains the order of the day.

Very well. Continue stating your opinion as fact, your call.


Fact.....

A thing that is known or proved to be true.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Very well. Continue stating your opinion as fact, your call.


Fact.....

A thing that is known or proved to be true.

So you still believe that it is a FACT that there has always been a plan for Brexit and that the government has been following it assiduously. Got any evidence of that?

 

[Hobbit]

We were told there was a plan to leave ...I was repeatedly told here that there was a plan to leave and that I shouldn't be so naive to expect to be told of that plan.

And no matter how big you think that we are we are in a mess.

And I am afraid that you seem to forget that well over 16 million people did not want to Leave, and that our wishes and concerns should be recognised.

It isn't all about Leave voters as much as they like to think that it is - and it simply cannot be all about the wishes of Leave voters if there is to be any chance of reconciliation across the electorate on this in the future.

Some commentators expect this to run for many, many years in the way that the Irish independence question consumed governments of all hues from the early 19th Century until the 1920s.

There was a plan, and the EU didn't accept it. They were offered another plan, and they didn't accept that. We're onto plan x,y,z, and you are naive if you don't think plans change, become hardened or moderated. C'mon Hugh, you're Project Manager. You know that you start of with a concept, develop a plan, offer the plan, accept that the customer wants it changing/amending. Find that elements of the plan aren't feasible, or that circumstances change, and the plan does to match it. What complicated plan have you ever had that is the same on delivery day as it was at first concept.

 

[hors limite]

There is something very odd going on. I don't know if it's the Trump influence where you keep on repeating the same false assertion until the gullible swallow it. Yesterday, Owen Paterson MP a prominent Brexiteer was at it. His response to the concerns Chief Exec of Jaguar L/R was to completely ignore them and to insist that the company would be better off after Brexit.I can't be persuaded that Paterson knows better than Jaguar, Airbus, BMW and all the rest. It can't be " Project Fear". They all say that we need frictionless trade and full access to the single market. It's well past the time when May must spell out how this can be achieved.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Any chance GM could get another GDPR request.......

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

We were told there was a plan to leave ...I was repeatedly told here that there was a plan to leave and that I shouldn't be so naive to expect to be told of that plan.

And no matter how big you think that we are we are in a mess.

And I am afraid that you seem to forget that well over 16 million people did not want to Leave, and that our wishes and concerns should be recognised.

It isn't all about Leave voters as much as they like to think that it is - and it simply cannot be all about the wishes of Leave voters if there is to be any chance of reconciliation across the electorate on this in the future.

Some commentators expect this to run for many, many years in the way that the Irish independence question consumed governments of all hues from the early 19th Century until the 1920s.

Do you understand the concept of a referendum?

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Do you understand the concept of a referendum?

Ah, but you have clearly forgotten that the Referendum was only advisory............and well over 16 million people advised the Government that the UK should remain.

Of course the fact that 17 million people advised the Government that the UK should leave doesn't matter - the 16 million are right...........because the 17 million were either old and senile and therefore didn't know what they were doing; or right-wing facists; or uneducated and thick.

And don't forget that it also rained in biblical proportions on Referendum Day, which kept a significant number of remain voters indoors!!

With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!

 

[Dando]

Ah, but you have clearly forgotten that the Referendum was only advisory............and well over 16 million people advised the Government that the UK should remain.

Of course the fact that 17 million people advised the Government that the UK should leave doesn't matter - the 16 million are right...........because the 17 million were either old and senile and therefore didn't know what they were doing; or right-wing facists; or uneducated and thick.

And don't forget that it also rained in biblical proportions on Referendum Day, which kept a significant number of remain voters indoors!!

With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!

you forgot about those who didn't vote as they were clearly happy with the way things were and so should be added to the remainers total.

next he'll want the remainers pets added to total

 

[Deleted member 1418]

next he'll want the remainers pets added to total

Only those old enough to vote of course!! So probably a fair few tortoises!!

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!

Well let's hope we don't get fooled again

 

[Foxholer]

...
With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!

Consistency then!

Btw! Townshend's lyrics also seem pretty appropriate to Brexit imo!

 

[bobmac]

So you still believe that it is a FACT that there has always been a plan for Brexit and that the government has been following it assiduously. Got any evidence of that?

Please tell me where I said that?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Let be honest with ourselves

It was also going to be a long and complex process for the UK to leave the EU and ensure that we don’t screw ourselves over and make sure that we get the best deal possible

It’s not harming anyone by taking their time - I don’t recall any specific timetable so I’m pretty sure it’s best for us all to make sure it’s done properly as opposed to quickly.

As long as whatever happens is in our best interest then I don’t care if they have to take their time doing it

 

[SocketRocket]

BTW - what happened to that plan that 2yrs ago you and others were adamant in telling us all that the government had for the negotiations, but that we could not be told about as telling us would undermine the negotiations.

Is it possible that there never was a plan - that there might have been aspirational objectives al la the Lancaster House speech - but in fact there has never been a plan.

But I suspect that we will never hear an admission that we were duped into thinking that there was a plan when in fact nothing of the sort ever existed. And the evidence for the lack of a plan? Well - look at the mess the negotiations and the government is in - and look at today's meeting...

What a shower - what a shambles.

Brexit means Brexit? What a vacuous and meaningless catch phrase as that is all it is.

They need us more than we need them? Well maybe some thought this at the outset - but given where we are today do we still think that..?

I tend to remember it being you that became rabid suggesting we need a plan and that the Pm hadn't sent you a personal copy of one. My preferred plan was always the same; Leave the EU, single market, customs union, stop free movement and adopt a points based immigration system, no more influence from the ECJ, try and agree a free trade agreement but if the EU play hard then walk from it and adopt WTO rules which would be better for us.

That was my plan and a bold honest one.

 

[Hobbit]

you forgot about those who didn't vote as they were clearly happy with the way things were and so should be added to the remainers total.

next he'll want the remainers pets added to total

Ah, but the intelligent people say that the minority won the vote because the population is 66 million, and only 17.4million voted Leave.

i guess that means the UK has had seriously minority governments since God knows when....wonder if it was Alister Campbell who came up with that level spin, or maybe someone closer to home

 

[IanM]

Brexit means Brexit? What a vacuous and meaningless catch phrase as that is all it is.

- well Cameron spent £9million on a really clear definition. It was only after the loss, excuse 733/12 came out

They need us more than we need them? Well maybe some thought this at the outset - but given where we are today do we still think that..?

Yes. Evidenced by the massive effort being made by them to block it. (of course you will not know what these are!

 

[Jasonr]

Remain = Get shafted by EU greedy politicians, big business and the banks
Leave = Get shafted by UK greedy politicians, big business and the banks

Heads they win, tails you lose it is, was and ever will be thus.

Arsenal vs Tottenham football vs rugby, old vs young rich vs poor right wing vs left wing, republic vs democrat, capitalism vs socialism, good vs bad, light vs dark ying vs yang.....

We fall for it every friggin time take a side and then finger point and snipe and tell each other how stupid the other side is instead of where it really should be directed - why and who has caused it all to fall out of bed so badly, who gains what and who wins what we already know who will lose (that's us the proles by the way).

Democracy is an illusion of choice we effectively get to choose between a red chair, a blue chair, a yellow chair, a green chair or a purple chair. No one ever questions why are we being asked to choose a chair and sit down.

 

[IanM]

Remain = Get shafted by EU greedy politicians, big business and the banks
Leave = Get shafted by UK greedy politicians, big business and the banks

Heads they win, tails you lose it is, was and ever will be thus.

Arsenal vs Tottenham football vs rugby, old vs young rich vs poor right wing vs left wing, republic vs democrat, capitalism vs socialism, good vs bad, light vs dark ying vs yang.....

We fall for it every friggin time take a side and then finger point and snipe and tell each other how stupid the other side is instead of where it really should be directed - why and who has caused it all to fall out of bed so badly, who gains what and who wins what we already know who will lose (that's us the proles by the way).

Democracy is an illusion of choice we effectively get to choose between a red chair, a blue chair, a yellow chair, a green chair or a purple chair. No one ever questions why are we being asked to choose a chair and sit down.

Hard to argue with that..........when I went to Uni doing Politics, my (engineer) dad laughed and said "they are all no bleedin good!" Easy degree son! I hoped he was joking