Bogey comps - why are they qualifiers?

[timd77]

Played in a bogey comp at the weekend, didn’t play very well and finished 5 down.

I’m not very experienced in these, I’ve only played in 1 before, but to me it’s matchplay against the course, a net par is a half, a net birdie is a win, and a net bogey is a loss. So I whenever i could only score a net bogey I picked up. Now just noticed the score has been entered on England golf. Is this normal?

For me it shouldn’t be a qualifier because your approach is totally different. If you’ve got a long putt or a chip for a net par, you’re really going for it, lags won’t get you anything. Similarly, a net eagle means nothing, so you’ll lag it to make sure you get the net birdie.

 

[LincolnShep]

Totally agree. It seems like matchplay to me.

 

[Orikoru]

I played in one once - actually didn't realise it was a 'bogey' at the time and didn't know what one was. Another player in the group kind of guided me in the scoring. At the end I thought exactly the same as you. Pointless making it a qualifier because that means you have to putt out just like you would in Stableford. Mentality is different as well, because in bogey you'd be encouraged to putt aggressively for nett par, given that nett bogey is no different to nett double or triple in that format (if I've remembered it correctly). But that's entirely at odds with playing for a qualifying score where every shot counts.

 

[wjemather]

Played in a bogey comp at the weekend, didn’t play very well and finished 5 down.

I’m not very experienced in these, I’ve only played in 1 before, but to me it’s matchplay against the course, a net par is a half, a net birdie is a win, and a net bogey is a loss. So I whenever i could only score a net bogey I picked up. Now just noticed the score has been entered on England golf. Is this normal?

For me it shouldn’t be a qualifier because your approach is totally different. If you’ve got a long putt or a chip for a net par, you’re really going for it, lags won’t get you anything. Similarly, a net eagle means nothing, so you’ll lag it to make sure you get the net birdie.

1. It's stroke play (albeit using scoring as in match play).
2. You should have been advised (many times since the introduction of WHS, via comms from your handicap committee) to continue play and hole out (and record scores) with reference to your Course Handicap and nett double bogey in all acceptable (for handicapping) formats of play.
3. The vast majority of handicap golfers are insufficiently skilled for "going for it" or "lagging it" to have any significant effect on their score - their judgment of pace (and break) is simply not good enough and they'll 1/2/3 putt with the same frequency regardless of their approach.

 

[AussieKB]

I avoid bogey (called par in OZ) like the plague......hate the format completely, prefer stroke.

 

[Orikoru]

1. It's stroke play (albeit using scoring as in match play).
2. You should have been advised (many times since the introduction of WHS, via comms from your handicap committee) to continue play and hole out (and record scores) with reference to your Course Handicap and nett double bogey in all acceptable (for handicapping) formats of play.
3. The vast majority of handicap golfers are insufficiently skilled for "going for it" or "lagging it" to have any significant effect on their score - their judgment of pace (and break) is simply not good enough and they'll 1/2/3 putt with the same frequency regardless of their approach.

I don't think this is true. My mate putts considerably worse when he has one putt to 'go for it' because he seems to think that means smash it 10 foot past the hole.

 

[nickjdavis]

3. The vast majority of handicap golfers are insufficiently skilled for "going for it" or "lagging it" to have any significant effect on their score - their judgment of pace (and break) is simply not good enough and they'll 1/2/3 putt with the same frequency regardless of their approach.

But its not just putting is it? Its your entire approach to a hole that is different in bogey.

When you tee off, you already know your "opponents" score when playing bogey. This will lead you to approach any given hole/shot in a totally different way than a normal strokeplay round. You are going to attempt shots that perhaps you wouldn't in strokeplay...because, as has been said, a nett bogey is no different to a nett treble bogey or whatever...so you attempt those "hero" shots that you wouldnt try in strokeplay where you would "take your medicine" and accept a bogey or even double, rather than risking something far worse.

I agree that the format is incompatible with handicapping and the normal desire to "make the best possible score" on any given hole.

 

[wjemather]

But its not just putting is it? Its your entire approach to a hole that is different in bogey.

When you tee off, you already know your "opponents" score when playing bogey. This will lead you to approach any given hole/shot in a totally different way than a normal strokeplay round. You are going to attempt shots that perhaps you wouldn't in strokeplay...because, as has been said, a nett bogey is no different to a nett treble bogey or whatever...so you attempt those "hero" shots that you wouldnt try in strokeplay where you would "take your medicine" and accept a bogey or even double, rather than risking something far worse.

I agree that the format is incompatible with handicapping and the normal desire to "make the best possible score" on any given hole.

We're still talking about golfers who are insufficiently skilled (at everything, including course management) for such decisions to significantly affect their score, let alone their handicap.

 

[Crow]

We're still talking about golfers who are insufficiently skilled (at everything, including course management) for such decisions to significantly affect their score, let alone their handicap.

How do you define "significantly affect"?

 

[timd77]

1. It's stroke play (albeit using scoring as in match play).
2. You should have been advised (many times since the introduction of WHS, via comms from your handicap committee) to continue play and hole out (and record scores) with reference to your Course Handicap and nett double bogey in all acceptable (for handicapping) formats of play.
3. The vast majority of handicap golfers are insufficiently skilled for "going for it" or "lagging it" to have any significant effect on their score - their judgment of pace (and break) is simply not good enough and they'll 1/2/3 putt with the same frequency regardless of their approach.

I understand what you’re saying, and if you were consciously playing a bogey format to put a card in, then your points make sense. However, you’ve paid your entry fee to try and win the competition, so you are going for it more, whether you’re skilled enough or not. Absolutely no point playing safe (which you would do in a medal) because it doesn’t help you in the competition you’ve entered.

I won’t be playing it again. Hasn’t affected my handicap yet, but who knows when other better scores start dropping off.

Ps - they’re not your rules I know

 

[Orikoru]

We're still talking about golfers who are insufficiently skilled (at everything, including course management) for such decisions to significantly affect their score, let alone their handicap.

I really disagree with this. If you hit your second shot into the trees on a hole where you don't get a shot, there's a big difference in what you'll attempt to do.
Stableford - chip out sideways, try and get up and down for a point most likely.
Bogey - chip out sideways and try and hole it from 80 yards? Or try and smash it towards the green through a tiny gap in the trees? You'd probably choose the latter.

 

[Orikoru]

I understand what you’re saying, and if you were consciously playing a bogey format to put a card in, then your points make sense. However, you’ve paid your entry fee to try and win the competition, so you are going for it more, whether you’re skilled enough or not. Absolutely no point playing safe (which you would do in a medal) because it doesn’t help you in the competition you’ve entered.

I won’t be playing it again. Hasn’t affected my handicap yet, but who knows when other better scores start dropping off.

Ps - they’re not your rules I know

Making it a qualifier compromises the whole point and purpose of the competition format. Without that, it should be a quick format where people are picking up after failing to make nett par (as opposed to Stableford where you pick up after failing to make nett bogey). If you make it a qualifier people will just play identical to a Stableford competition so you might as well just make it a Stableford competition.

Same as you, after the one I played in counted on my record I also decided I wouldn't bother playing that format again.

 

[BiMGuy]

I don't think this is true. My mate putts considerably worse when he has one putt to 'go for it' because he seems to think that means smash it 10 foot past the hole.

99% of all putts where people say they are free to 'go for it' go at least 10 ft past and have absolutley no chance of going in!

 

[timd77]

An extreme example would be, you’re pin high but short sided, flag tucked up on the right, scabby lie, a bunker to get over and water behind. You need to get up and down for a net par.

In a medal you’re taking your medicine, chipping to the front edge of the green, avoiding having to get over the bunker altogether and the water is no longer in play. Maybe drain a monster putt, but more likely to take 2 or even 3 putts to get down. However, you’ve avoided totally ruining your card and carry on.

In matchplay/bogey, your partner is already in for a net par, so the safe option is pointless. You’ve got to open that face up and try to flop it over the bunker and give yourself a decent putt. If you chunk it into the bunker or blade it into the water, well no harm done, you’ve lost the hole, next.

It is a totally different game and really shouldn’t be a qualifier, in the same way matches aren’t.

 

[Orikoru]

99% of all putts where people say they are free to 'go for it' go at least 10 ft past and have absolutley no chance of going in!

I know - it really annoys me. Whenever we're in a pairs match, I've holed out and hear him say "right I've got a free putt at this" or something to that effect - I just roll my eyes and know what comes next. I've tried talking to him and explaining that you should putt to the hole exactly the same way, no matter what the score or situation, but he doesn't really get it.

 

[Orikoru]

An extreme example would be, you’re pin high but short sided, flag tucked up on the right, scabby lie, a bunker to get over and water behind. You need to get up and down for a net par.

In a medal you’re taking your medicine, chipping to the front edge of the green, avoiding having to get over the bunker altogether and the water is no longer in play. Maybe drain a monster putt, but more likely to take 2 or even 3 putts to get down. However, you’ve avoided totally ruining your card and carry on.

In matchplay/bogey, your partner is already in for a net par, so the safe option is pointless. You’ve got to open that face up and try to flop it over the bunker and give yourself a decent putt. If you chunk it into the bunker or blade it into the water, well no harm done, you’ve lost the hole, next.

It is a totally different game and really shouldn’t be a qualifier, in the same way matches aren’t.

Or even that same scenario but you need that chip to go in for nett par. You'd definitely be trying to hole it in a bogey, but any other format there's no way you'd go for it due to the risk.

 

[clubchamp98]

An extreme example would be, you’re pin high but short sided, flag tucked up on the right, scabby lie, a bunker to get over and water behind. You need to get up and down for a net par.

In a medal you’re taking your medicine, chipping to the front edge of the green, avoiding having to get over the bunker altogether and the water is no longer in play. Maybe drain a monster putt, but more likely to take 2 or even 3 putts to get down. However, you’ve avoided totally ruining your card and carry on.

In matchplay/bogey, your partner is already in for a net par, so the safe option is pointless. You’ve got to open that face up and try to flop it over the bunker and give yourself a decent putt. If you chunk it into the bunker or blade it into the water, well no harm done, you’ve lost the hole, next.

It is a totally different game and really shouldn’t be a qualifier, in the same way matches aren’t.

Yes exactly.
Isn’t this why matchplay and medal formats were banned being played together.?
I might be wrong but sure that was in the rules years ago.!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

99% of all putts where people say they are free to 'go for it' go at least 10 ft past and have absolutley no chance of going in!

Too true
Hard putts have only half the size of the hole.
Dead weight putts have the total size of the hole, [yes even backwards]

Re Bogey comps.
I am old enough to remember scorecards having both bogey and par score boxes listed.
In those days a bogey would, as an example, be a 440yd uphill par 4 /bogey 5. Or a blind 200 yard par 3/ bogey 4.
Most cards had about 4 or 5 bogey holes so a par 71 course would be a bogey 75.

Modern Bogey competitions should really be called Par competitions.
The old term bogey hole means a tough hole and not a hole that you are generally unlucky when playing.

 

[wjemather]

How do you define "significantly affect"?

If you took the average scores "being aggressive/going for it" and "playing safe/lagging up" any difference would be statistically insignificant.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yes, we have called it "vs par" not bogey, for a few decades at our club.
It is a competition. It is handicap qualifying. Therefore - play accordingly to it being handicap qualifying.

"Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole." - Player Responsibilities, Rules Of Handicapping.

Nett score, stableford points or vs par score - merely gives you a placing in the field at the end of play.