BLM protests/ Riots.

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Kaz said:
I think the "both siding" is a massive problem. The "debate" is should all people be treated equally and fairly regardless of race. What on earth is there to debate over that? Where the "debate" comes in is that racists seek to deny the obvious truth that POC face systemic discrimination in their lives. There is a massive amount of false equivalence going on trying to equate a mostly peaceful protest movement that spans generations, genders and races to raise awareness of this issue with a bunch of racist grandads looking for a fight.

One symptom of that is as you describe. If the faces presenting on ITV don't reflect the audience why is that? And if they finally have wakened to it why shouldn't they try to address it? You say you understand the aims but ask about legality. Why? It may be adding 2 + 2 to make 5 but one possible interpretation is that you understand the aim but do not support it.
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Usually you make some interesting observations but in this post I believe you have slipped into exactly what I was describing as an issue - polarisation. Why is there a need for this type of statement "...with a bunch of racist grandads looking for a fight." Within the UK we have freedom of expression IF indeed they are racists grandads they still have the same rights but neither you or I know what their personal circumstances or reasons for being at the illegal gathering. The main issue is these protest gatherings were all illegal due to the virus present all should be equally condemmed for their actions. To what degree one faction as or was not more peaceful is not proven ; both were breaking the law.

Racism is intollerable and should be identified and eradicated. However, there is a BUT, The 'But' is that there are minorities who have expectations that exceed the norms of society. I have sat on arbitration panels where it is clear the individual's expectations were falsely and way higher that their peers. I have witnessed senior military officers extremely concerned because they have a need to discipline a peronal from a minority group yet they fear the ettnicity issue will take over from the facts. I, as many other managers Im' sure have observed an ethnic candidate promoted by a manager because the 'problem' employee was prone to blame his/her underperformance on being differently. The 'problem' is passed up the organisation to a role well beyond competence Thiis issue of percieved 'positive discrimmination' gnenerates tensions in society and the workplace just as percieved racism is a barrier to addressing the real issue.

We openly and rightly talk about the assitance and encouragement needed by black kids in rundown areas - I'd venture to say that the Asian, Chinese and white kids in the same area probably suffer much the same deprivation and need help in equal measure.

You state with rereference to a TV company explicity declaring they wish to recruit based on colour the " ...you understand the aims but ask about legality..."; this is eaxactly the twist and inference that I believe needs to ensure even handedness. The Equalities Commission works hard to eliminate ethnicity based biase. I merely thought I'd shine a light on such statements which are easily judged to be biased by simply changing the 'trying to recuit a black presenter' to 'trying to recruit a white presenter' .

Lastly you make the asserton "It may be adding 2 + 2 to make 5 but one possible interpretation is that you understand the aim but do not support it". Your arithmentic is indeed wrong. I belive this sort of debate can be much more productive if we avoid judging and categorising a poster and inferring their stance to be or less moral than ones own - indeed the more we concentrate on the subject rather than rushed personal judgements the better. Few people on the Forum are aquainted and so the background and personal context that generates an individual's view on the world is a presumption (often wrong) , as I said at the beginning - in the UK we enjoy freedom of expression.
 
I'm still getting my head around the anti BLM protesters protecting the Winston Churchill statue from absolutely no one whilst giving the Nazi salute.
Did that actually happen.:unsure: or am I living an a parallel universe. :love:
 
Meanwhile in Glasgow today, anti-anti-racists cause mayhem in George Square by turning up en masse to protect Robert Peel's statue and batter the police.
 
drdel said:
Usually you make some interesting observations but in this post I believe you have slipped into exactly what I was describing as an issue - polarisation. Why is there a need for this type of statement "...with a bunch of racist grandads looking for a fight." Within the UK we have freedom of expression IF indeed they are racists grandads they still have the same rights but neither you or I know what their personal circumstances or reasons for being at the illegal gathering. The main issue is these protest gatherings were all illegal due to the virus present all should be equally condemmed for their actions. To what degree one faction as or was not more peaceful is not proven ; both were breaking the law.

Racism is intollerable and should be identified and eradicated. However, there is a BUT, The 'But' is that there are minorities who have expectations that exceed the norms of society. I have sat on arbitration panels where it is clear the individual's expectations were falsely and way higher that their peers. I have witnessed senior military officers extremely concerned because they have a need to discipline a peronal from a minority group yet they fear the ettnicity issue will take over from the facts. I, as many other managers Im' sure have observed an ethnic candidate promoted by a manager because the 'problem' employee was prone to blame his/her underperformance on being differently. The 'problem' is passed up the organisation to a role well beyond competence Thiis issue of percieved 'positive discrimmination' gnenerates tensions in society and the workplace just as percieved racism is a barrier to addressing the real issue.

We openly and rightly talk about the assitance and encouragement needed by black kids in rundown areas - I'd venture to say that the Asian, Chinese and white kids in the same area probably suffer much the same deprivation and need help in equal measure.

You state with rereference to a TV company explicity declaring they wish to recruit based on colour the " ...you understand the aims but ask about legality..."; this is eaxactly the twist and inference that I believe needs to ensure even handedness. The Equalities Commission works hard to eliminate ethnicity based biase. I merely thought I'd shine a light on such statements which are easily judged to be biased by simply changing the 'trying to recuit a black presenter' to 'trying to recruit a white presenter' .

Lastly you make the asserton "It may be adding 2 + 2 to make 5 but one possible interpretation is that you understand the aim but do not support it". Your arithmentic is indeed wrong. I belive this sort of debate can be much more productive if we avoid judging and categorising a poster and inferring their stance to be or less moral than ones own - indeed the more we concentrate on the subject rather than rushed personal judgements the better. Few people on the Forum are aquainted and so the background and personal context that generates an individual's view on the world is a presumption (often wrong) , as I said at the beginning - in the UK we enjoy freedom of expression.
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my issue with all of this venting against ‘positive discrimination’ is that it seems to presume the playing field is level, & any ‘positive’ promotion is an undeserved addition. It’s not it’s a levelling of the playing field!
 
Kaz said:
It was clearly a dig at the blokes making trouble not at grandads in general. Sorry if you took offence but you're very wide of the mark.
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Haha...you have to be careful with the identity politics on here, I described the rioters as bald and tattooed something’s yesterday and a bald fella and a tattooed fella both pulled me up on it. I believe (hope) it was all in jest but you never know!
 
therod said:
my issue with all of this venting against ‘positive discrimination’ is that it seems to presume the playing field is level, & any ‘positive’ promotion is an undeserved addition. It’s not it’s a levelling of the playing field!
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It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. It should be for the best candidate, irrespective of any other consideration.
 
murphthemog said:
It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. It should be for the best candidate, irrespective of any other consideration.
Click to expand...

What about if the best person for the job in the current context, to best represent the diversity in society and a diversity of opinions, is not another version of whatever currently fills up that board/workforce/panel? Is it possible that in some situations the best candidate is seen as someone who represents a specific gender/race or religion? If the vast majority of us on this forum are well/over represented on boards and positions of 'power' and dare I say have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, can we get upset if there is a deliberate move to change that a bit?
 
murphthemog said:
It's not a level playing field if you advertise for a black candidate though, or even a BAME one. It's a job. It should be for the best candidate, irrespective of any other consideration.
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It’s a really clumsy tool, but I’m not sure if there’s a better one. It’s the easiest way to equalise an equal opportunities policy.
 
Kaz said:
OK, the "racist grandads" line is a cheap dig, probably ill-advised but it amused me. Maybe should have held it in reserve for a more light-hearted post.

As for polarisation - that is where we are I'm afraid. I refuse to "both sides" an issue where the right side is obvious and the wrong so heinous. But I am prepared to have a more nuanced discussion provided I believe people are doing so in good faith.

Hence the last paragraph. I completely agree with you which was why I so carefully worded a point I've tried and failed to make on here for days now. Which is the extent to which a number of posters on here are critical of BLM without any support or even mention of the issues they are raising does risk a rush to judgement about the motivations of those posters. I'd ask people to try and take a more balanced line when criticising people protesting about issues they face in their lives that some of us never have and never will have to deal with.
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I dont understand where this comes from (highlighted text) , I've not read anywhere someone saying Black Lives Dont Matter, quite the opposite that they do matter. I've read a number of condemnations to those that have used violence where ever it happens but that seems unnaceptable and open for insults.

Something I do find rather concerning is the way a number of posters who challenge discrimination can so easily use it themselves. Suggesting that a 'Grandad' has to be racist, or an older person is racist just because they're older is predujiced and no better IMO, we've also been informed here that the thugs using violence this weekend are typical 'Brexit Gammons' Cant you see how this type of blinkered pigeonholing is used to belittle and insult in a similar vein to that they so readily condemn. Aparently I'm a racist old man, or so I have been labled by someone who doesnt know me and cant even give a valid reason for saying it.

Taking your own words Kaz 'I'd ask people to try and take a more balanced line when criticising people'
 
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Fade and Die said:
Haha...you have to be careful with the identity politics on here, I described the rioters as bald and tattooed something’s yesterday and a bald fella and a tattooed fella both pulled me up on it. I believe (hope) it was all in jest but you never know!
Click to expand...
It was a joke, at the expense of the id politics crew

Hence the big smilie

was hopeful of getting a load of hairy virtue signallers jumping to my defense.
 
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