BLM protests/ Riots.

[SocketRocket]

Problem is it's easy to be abject about a subject you don't have personal experience of being put through.

That's not a dig at you btw, I totally understand where you're coming from but this is the whole point of BLM marches to, we have many white men etc saying we need to be abject yet they haven't lived through the prejudice so cannot fully understand what it feels like to be made to feel the way they do hence they cannot remain abject and simply address it from our PoV, same way I replied to you initially.

Its easy for an outsider to look at quick stats and make judgement, but until you've been subject to certain treatments, and been included in a stat just because of who you are rather than because of your actions the ability to be abject is lost because its almost like rather than people acknowledge the poor treatment you get as a so called absent father or because purely of black skin in the case of what's happening now its essentially like your feelings are brushed aside to discuss it purely from someone else's point of view that's in many ways unaffected.

No we need to stop trying to take the high ground and being abject and actually try to understand what its like for people to be persecuted for their colour, sex or even absenteeism without knowing their story and seek to find ways to improve how we treat those people as more than a lopsided stat.

I take your points on board but in this case I simply cannot agree, so perhaps best we end our particular dance on this thread with each other ??

OK, I understand you but feel I have to make a reply.

You cant say that because someone isnt black they cant have a view on what needs to be done to solve the problem or cannot understand it. Often it's easier to see a problem and understand why it's a problem and what needs to be done about it if you can take a detached or 'objective' view of it, it's often hard to do this when you are inside the issue and your emotions are affecting your logic.

Experts and academics often have no practical experience in the subject they study, they tend to be very good at taking a detached unemotional viewpoint or what is sometimes called a 'helicopter view' One where you look at the problem as an impartial observer that only considers the subject by its inherent components.
To me using slogans like 'Black Lives Matter' or 'Taking the Knee' or throwing statues in a dock solve nothing, they just perpetuate the problem by looking at the symptoms and not understanding the true causes. If as a Country or World community we want to make real changes that can create better equality of life oppertunities then we have to be strong enough to open up and be prepared to look the problem square in the face and not shy away from open debate, shutting down views because they seem offensive to some people or contrary to long held norms is not going to create the type of change needed here.

Of course I will understand if you no longer wish to discuss this matter with me, that is always your right and perogative.

 

[Wolf]

OK, I understand you but feel I have to make a reply.

You cant say that because someone isnt black they cant have a view on what needs to be done to solve the problem or cannot understand it. Often it's easier to see a problem and understand why it's a problem and what needs to be done about it if you can take a detached or 'objective' view of it, it's often hard to do this when you are inside the issue and your emotions are affecting your logic.

Experts and academics often have no practical experience in the subject they study, they tend to be very good at taking a detached unemotional viewpoint or what is sometimes called a 'helicopter view' One where you look at the problem as an impartial observer that only considers the subject by its inherent components.
To me using slogans like 'Black Lives Matter' or 'Taking the Knee' or throwing statues in a dock solve nothing, they just perpetuate the problem by looking at the symptoms and not understanding the true causes. If as a Country or World community we want to make real changes that can create better equality of life oppertunities then we have to be strong enough to open up and be prepared to look the problem square in the face and not shy away from open debate, shutting down views because they seem offensive to some people or contrary to long held norms is not going to create the type of change needed here.

Of course I will understand if you no longer wish to discuss this matter with me, that is always your right and perogative.

I never said they can't have a view, I said its easy to be abject when you haven't suffered what they have and to expect anyone that's suffered it to be abject is IMO ridiculous. But I certainly can say because someone isn't black they cannot understand it, because quite simply we can't because we as white people don't face the levels of racism or prejudices black people do and have done for decades.

As for the expert comments again detracts from the msg of BLM, Who are the real experts on how racial abuse feels, the impartial boffin with his component parts or the millions in BAME communities that are suffering daily. Why should a black man or woman have to detract themselves from the colour of their skin in a debate in order to gain equality and be treated better by society. There can be no impartiality where this debate is concerned because to remove that is again to undermine the msg of what needs to be discussed and changed. We're not talking about Brexit here and getting the best deal for trade with inherent components etc, we're talking about actual human lives, people that are treated differently for no reason other than their skin colour. There can be no sitting on the fence impartial views, we we either acknowledge that Black lives do actually matter and make change or remain impartial and hope it blows over. Also again it's easy to use the remain impartial line when we're not the ones being treated differently because of our skin colour..

Black Lives Matter, isn't just a slogan and if that's how you view it then you have completely missed the message. It's not a slogan at all, its a statement of fact pure and simple that black lives do matter and should no longer be treated differently or persecuted based on skin colour.

Nobody is shying away from open debate, if you think they are then again I think you're missing the msg and purely focused on the individuals that have chosen to riot instead of protest and speak out, they are the minority but they get more press. As for we shouldn't be shutting down views because they're offensive really! That's exactly what we should be doing shutting down every view that pigeon holes or is offensive that is purely based on skin colour or other prejudices. You mentioned the long term norms won't change, you're absolutely right they won't if we continue to take the abject and impartial views you seem to be promoting. The only way those long term held norms change isn't to accept others have offensive views its to confront them in the correct abd legal ways to remove those prejudices from our societies.

I wont discuss this further with you as previously mentioned because we couldn't be any further apart in our views. I simply cannot even agree to disagree that we need to remain abject and simply let the experts deal with it. Its something we all have to address together to bring change about and not accept things as they are.

 

[SocketRocket]

I never said they can't have a view, I said its easy to be abject when you haven't suffered what they have and to expect anyone that's suffered it to be abject is IMO ridiculous. But I certainly can say because someone isn't black they cannot understand it, because quite simply we can't because we as white people don't face the levels of racism or prejudices black people do and have done for decades.

As for the expert comments again detracts from the msg of BLM, Who are the real experts on how racial abuse feels, the impartial boffin with his component parts or the millions in BAME communities that are suffering daily. Why should a black man or woman have to detract themselves from the colour of their skin in a debate in order to gain equality and be treated better by society. There can be no impartiality where this debate is concerned because to remove that is again to undermine the msg of what needs to be discussed and changed. We're not talking about Brexit here and getting the best deal for trade with inherent components etc, we're talking about actual human lives, people that are treated differently for no reason other than their skin colour. There can be no sitting on the fence impartial views, we we either acknowledge that Black lives do actually matter and make change or remain impartial and hope it blows over. Also again it's easy to use the remain impartial line when we're not the ones being treated differently because of our skin colour..

Black Lives Matter, isn't just a slogan and if that's how you view it then you have completely missed the message. It's not a slogan at all, its a statement of fact pure and simple that black lives do matter and should no longer be treated differently or persecuted based on skin colour.

Nobody is shying away from open debate, if you think they are then again I think you're missing the msg and purely focused on the individuals that have chosen to riot instead of protest and speak out, they are the minority but they get more press. As for we shouldn't be shutting down views because they're offensive really! That's exactly what we should be doing shutting down every view that pigeon holes or is offensive that is purely based on skin colour or other prejudices. You mentioned the long term norms won't change, you're absolutely right they won't if we continue to take the abject and impartial views you seem to be promoting. The only way those long term held norms change isn't to accept others have offensive views its to confront them in the correct abd legal ways to remove those prejudices from our societies.

I wont discuss this further with you as previously mentioned because we couldn't be any further apart in our views. I simply cannot even agree to disagree that we need to remain abject and simply let the experts deal with it. Its something we all have to address together to bring change about and not accept things as they are.

OK, I do understand your view and disagree with it, like you do with mine. Although I do feel you are missing or dismissing my message. Abraham Lincoln was white, William Wilberforce was White and they both understood the evil of racism. I repeat, you dont have to be inside the problem to understand it or find ways to fix it. I am not suggesting Black Lives Dont Matter, only a moron would think that, what I'm saying is to fix things it takes more than what's happening now, much more.

 

[DanFST]

Although I do feel you are missing or dismissing my message. Abraham Lincoln was white, William Wilberforce was White and they both understood the evil of racism.

Obviously everyone understands the evil of racism.

I think Wolf is right, anyone who says that whites can’t have an opinion is an idiot. But we can never truly understand what it’s like.

I ask you this; there is specific, documented information available of every aspect of pregnancy. Do you think a man can know truly know what going through pregnancy is like?

 

[JustWayne]

I’m sick of hearing the in trend term Systemic Racism regarding the US, can anyone explain how a country where its last POTUS was black, where black people hold the highest offices in the land, black people hold the highest offices in police departments, where the majority of players and multi-millionaires in sporting circles are black, where black multi-millionaire actors appear on screen, where people Of minorities have been given exclusive access to jobs, where there are black college and university only scholarships, black only charities And black only music awards, and the majority of black deaths are at the hands of other black people, where exactly is the systemic racism?
Sure their is racism, be that white on black, black on white, black on Mexican or whoever else, but I can’t get behind a movement where it only matters about the colour of the person that kills a black person, All Lives Matter is now seen as racist LOL. And personally I couldn’t ever mourn a person who’d done the things George Floyd has done.

 

[Wolf]

OK, I do understand your view and disagree with it, like you do with mine. Although I do feel you are missing or dismissing my message. Abraham Lincoln was white, William Wilberforce was White and they both understood the evil of racism. I repeat, you dont have to be inside the problem to understand it or find ways to fix it. I am not suggesting Black Lives Dont Matter, only a moron would think that, what I'm saying is to fix things it takes more than what's happening now, much more.

I am only replying because I want to address that you feel I am missing or being dismissive of your point which is simply not true, I just completely disagree with you.

Wilberforce, Lincoln et al had the best interests of people at heart and were willing to speak out against it which is the right thing to do as we all should, but they never had to suffer it personally. So imo whilst they could sympathise from what they saw and were willing to speak up they couldn't truly understand what it personally felt like. That's not dismissal of your point its a simple fact.

@DanFST analogy of pregnancy is a good one, I have 6 kids and seen what every step of pregnancy & child birth looks like, gave the right support where needed but I can never understand how it feels to be in that person's body and going through those changes . I will leave it there and kindly bow out, but just to reiterate my opening line, I'm not missing your point or being dismissive of your opinion I simply don't agree thats all it is.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I’m sick of hearing the in trend term Systemic Racism regarding the US, can anyone explain how a country where its last POTUS was black, where black people hold the highest offices in the land, black people hold the highest offices in police departments, where the majority of players and multi-millionaires in sporting circles are black, where black multi-millionaire actors appear on screen, where people Of minorities have been given exclusive access to jobs, where there are black college and university only scholarships, black only charities And black only music awards, and the majority of black deaths are at the hands of other black people, where exactly is the systemic racism?
Sure their is racism, be that white on black, black on white, black on Mexican or whoever else, but I can’t get behind a movement where it only matters about the colour of the person that kills a black person, All Lives Matter is now seen as racist LOL. And personally I couldn’t ever mourn a person who’d done the things George Floyd has done.

I think the key word there is last. Not current. And thanks you for your compassion and empathy Wayne, it is an example for all of us.

https://twitter.com/x/status/980275507462852608

 

[patricks148]

I think the key word there is last. Not current. And thanks you for your compassion and empathy, it is an example for all of us.

https://twitter.com/x/status/980275507462852608

what are you on about, its very diverse, theres both Blondes and Brunetts.

 

[rudebhoy]

I’m sick of hearing the in trend term Systemic Racism regarding the US, can anyone explain how a country where its last POTUS was black, where black people hold the highest offices in the land, black people hold the highest offices in police departments, where the majority of players and multi-millionaires in sporting circles are black, where black multi-millionaire actors appear on screen, where people Of minorities have been given exclusive access to jobs, where there are black college and university only scholarships, black only charities And black only music awards, and the majority of black deaths are at the hands of other black people, where exactly is the systemic racism?
Sure their is racism, be that white on black, black on white, black on Mexican or whoever else, but I can’t get behind a movement where it only matters about the colour of the person that kills a black person, All Lives Matter is now seen as racist LOL. And personally I couldn’t ever mourn a person who’d done the things George Floyd has done.

A few facts for you

Wealth -
Whites make up 77% of the US population, and own 90% of the wealth
Blacks make up 13% of the US population, and own 2.3% of the wealth
For every $100 white families earn in income, black families earn just $57.30

Employment -
Black unemployment has consistently been twice that of white unemployment for the last 60 years
Blacks with college degrees are twice as likely to be unemployed as all other graduates
Job applicants with white-sounding names get called for interviews about 50% more of the time than applicants with black-sounding names, even when they have identical resumes.

Education -
While black children constitute 18% of preschoolers nationwide, Black students are 3x more likely than white students to be suspended for the same infractions. They make up nearly 50% of suspensions.
Overall, black students represent 16% of student enrollment and 27% of students referred to law enforcement.
Once black children are in the criminal justice system, they are 18 times more likely than white children to be sentenced as adults.

Criminal Justice -
Blacks make up 13% of the population, they represent about 40% of the prison population
When black people are convicted, they are about 20% more likely to be sentenced to jail time, and typically see sentences 20% longer than those for whites who were convicted of similar crimes.

It's interesting that Trump voters are far more likely to deny systemic racism, while Democrat voters acknowledge it is an ongoing problem.

Of course there are examples of positive discrimination, but ask yourself why they exist? In an attempt to help rectify the problem. Just because these examples exist, doesn't mean the problem has gone away.

 

[hovis]

I think Wolf is right, anyone who says that whites can’t have an opinion is an idiot. But we can never truly understand what it’s like.

Why can't we? I wasn't allowed to play cricket as a boy with my Asian friend because I was white. His friends told me to play football instead with the other white boys.
As a teenager I have been mugged 4 times because I was white.
I've been chased though Birmingham centre by black kids for unknowingly walking in a black only area.
I missed out on the job I wanted because the service needed to employ more minority groups... because I was white.

This is what winds me up the most. Because I'm from a majority group I have no say. When I was beat up for my jacket by 5 black lads that apparently wasn't a racist attack it was a mugging!!!

So even if it isn't to the same extent we can all relate to racism an the effects is has on people

 

[Beezerk]

Why can't we? I wasn't allowed to play cricket as a boy with my Asian friend because I was white. His friends told me to play football instead with the other white boys.
As a teenager I have been mugged 4 times because I was white.
I've been chased though Birmingham centre by black kids for unknowingly walking in a black only area.
I missed out on the job I wanted because the service needed to employ more minority groups... because I was white.

This is what winds me up the most. Because I'm from a majority group I have no say. When I was beat up for my jacket by 5 black lads that apparently wasn't a racist attack it was a mugging!!!

I remember as a kid getting called a "white b*****d" by a group of Asian kids I walked past.
I wasn't really bothered by it but it was rather surreal as at the time I thought racism was only a one way street.

 

[Old Skier]

Can someone explain why the the man who was convicted of many violent crimes is held up as the icon of "Black Lives Matter" when he committed crimes against them. Yes he was killed by a badly trained individual who had no understanding of choke holds and the possible consequences. Man was an idiot but your not telling me he deliberately went out to kill the man. His chance of justice from the court system is now out the window in the fear of any reprisals.

No doubt someone will want a permant memorial ignoring all the bad things that he did - oh hang on.

Now political leaders in this country are "taking the knee", they have had years to sort this but there was no publicity in it. An idiot MP condemning a minister of Asian origin that they don't understand, now that was racist. Politicians and rioter deciding without any dialog that we should start and have removed some of the landmarks in the country that without google they wouldn't have a clue of the individuals past. Perhaps next we should destroy all the religious buildings and monuments because of the suppression and fear that was caused in the name of religion.

And now if you dare to counter with "All lives matter" you are a racist because the idiots have realised that the very statement is racist, in my humble opinion, but obviously my opinion no longer matters or counts because people who have no idea of my background and experience have decided.

The country has gone mad and now the silent majority don't have a voice.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Can absolutely understand the wish and perhaps need to remove public celebration of individuals and attitudes that were OK 'back then' but are not or are less acceptable today.

But I not at all sure about HBO Max removing Gone with the Wind from their offerings. That is censorship. I can watch that film and it most certainly provides me with an insight into slavery in the southern states; attitudes in the Confederacy and the background to the American Civil War - and why - when we see the Confederate flag being flown today we know what it represents and should absolutely not simply think of it as a 'cool' flag.

Talking Pictures TV shows many films and TV programmes from earlier times which include attitudes, language and behaviour across all matters (including race - see for example Love thy Neighbour) that many, if not most, viewing today could find offensive. But before the start of any such film or programme the channel puts up a very clear statement - that attitudes towards such things were very different when the film/programme was made. I am warned that if I am likely to be offended I simply do not watch. And if I do, and I am uncomfortable with what I am viewing, then I know how to change channel.

 

[rudebhoy]

Can someone explain why the the man who was convicted of many violent crimes is held up as the icon of "Black Lives Matter" when he committed crimes against them. Yes he was killed by a badly trained individual who had no understanding of choke holds and the possible consequences. Man was an idiot but your not telling me he deliberately went out to kill the man. His chance of justice from the court system is now out the window in the fear of any reprisals.

No doubt someone will want a permant memorial ignoring all the bad things that he did - oh hang on.

Now political leaders in this country are "taking the knee", they have had years to sort this but there was no publicity in it. An idiot MP condemning a minister of Asian origin that they don't understand, now that was racist. Politicians and rioter deciding without any dialog that we should start and have removed some of the landmarks in the country that without google they wouldn't have a clue of the individuals past. Perhaps next we should destroy all the religious buildings and monuments because of the suppression and fear that was caused in the name of religion.

And now if you dare to counter with "All lives matter" you are a racist because the idiots have realised that the very statement is racist, in my humble opinion, but obviously my opinion no longer matters or counts because people who have no idea of my background and experience have decided.

The country has gone mad and now the silent majority don't have a voice.

The words aren't racist, however it is a loaded phrase knowingly used by racists amongst others to denigrate the BLM movement.

BLM are not saying 'only Black Lives Matter", they are saying "Black Lives Matter Too"


If you've got a few minutes, this article explains it a lot more eloquantly than I can.

https://www.parents.com/kids/respon...esnt-work-in-terms-simple-enough-for-a-child/

 

[DanFST]

Why can't we? I wasn't allowed to play cricket as a boy with my Asian friend because I was white. His friends told me to play football instead with the other white boys.
As a teenager I have been mugged 4 times because I was white.
I've been chased though Birmingham centre by black kids for unknowingly walking in a black only area.
I missed out on the job I wanted because the service needed to employ more minority groups... because I was white.

This is what winds me up the most. Because I'm from a majority group I have no say. When I was beat up for my jacket by 5 black lads that apparently wasn't a racist attack it was a mugging!!!

So even if it isn't to the same extent we can all relate to racism an the effects is has on people

Let me guess, you’re over 45?

I’m sorry the brown kids wouldn’t let you play cricket with them, that must have really made living your life hard.

Maybe if there was equality someone wouldn’t have felt the need to enforce some bull**** quota and you would have got the job!

 

[Beezerk]

Can someone explain why the the man who was convicted of many violent crimes is held up as the icon of "Black Lives Matter" when he committed crimes against them.

Do you think the press will eventually turn on him like they usually do, or keep quiet as they will get accused of racism?

 

[Old Skier]

The words aren't racist, however it is a loaded phrase knowingly used by racists amongst others to denigrate the BLM movement.

BLM are not saying 'only Black Lives Matter", they are saying "Black Lives Matter Too"


If you've got a few minutes, this article explains it a lot more eloquantly than I can.

https://www.parents.com/kids/respon...esnt-work-in-terms-simple-enough-for-a-child/

Then they should add the word "Too" if they really mean it.

 

[hovis]

Let me guess, you’re over 45?

I’m sorry the brown kids wouldn’t let you play cricket with them, that must have really made living your life hard.

Maybe if there was equality someone wouldn’t have felt the need to enforce some bull**** quota and you would have got the job!

No I'm 37. Funny how you left out my experiences of being beaten and left bleeding for my jacket out your post and being chased through the streets of Birmingham. I have experienced racism and I'm sorry it not to your level of extreme. Bottom line is opportunitys are there for everyone. Funny how Asian people are not beeting their drum. Why? they apply themselves, take the opportunity they have been given a make something of themselves. All the Asian kids at my school sat at the front and got straight A's in all their subjects. None of them got held back and spout racism at every possible opportunity. I went to school with lots of Asian kids and today they are extremely successful in life.

 

[Old Skier]

Do you think the press will eventually turn on him like they usually do, or keep quiet as they will get accused of racism?

No because they will be afraid of the reaction from the rioters.

Just watched an item on BBC where the reporter felt it was wrong to use the "N" which we are all frighten to even think but fine to use the "Spick" word. Double standards.

 

[rudebhoy]

Then they should add the word "Too" if they really mean it.

I would have thought the meaning of BLM was pretty obvious, but just in case, this might help you.