Ball "lost" up a tree, then falls back into play

[One Planer]

Bit of a strange one here.

Our 8th hole is a dog leg, right par 4. The hole doglegs at 90* to the tee. The idea is to play to the corner then play to the green. The hole is SI 2.

At the point of the dog leg if a mahoosive conifer.

My dad tee's off and hit ball flies straight into the conifer, on the carry, about 1/3 of the way up. We didn't see it drop so played a provisional, no problems into the fairway.

While walking to his ball he decided to have a quick look in the conifer to see if he could see it. He literally pealed open the branches to peer in and his ball fell out and rolled about a yard from the tree, in play, on the fairway.

He didn't have the best lie, or a line to the green but it was in play.

What is the ruling here?

Is the first ball deemed as lost? Can he play his original ball it having fallen out of the tree? Is there a penalty involved in the recovery or playing it?



Any help appreciated.

 

[Colin L]

What is the ruling here?

Is the first ball deemed as lost? Can he play his original ball it having fallen out of the tree? Is there a penalty involved in the recovery or playing it?
.

He obviously found the original ball within 5 minutes of starting to look so it is not lost and is the ball in play. He must play it.

If he caused the ball to fall out of the tree - and your description of events indicates that he did - he is liable to a one stroke penalty and must replace the ball. If he plays from where the ball fell, he loses the hole or incurs 2 penalty strokes. Decision 28-2a/28

Have a look at Decision 28-2a/29 for what to do if the ball cannot be replaced

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-18/#18-2a/29

 

[Matty]

So the lesson here is either don't look for the first ball if it's up a tree or be very careful when looking to ensure you don't risk dislodging it as it's be a penalty stroke for moving it and then a penalty drop after declaring the original position unplayable thus playing your fourth stroke! (Right?)

 

[Colin L]

So the lesson here is either don't look for the first ball if it's up a tree or be very careful when looking to ensure you don't risk dislodging it as it's be a penalty stroke for moving it and then a penalty drop after declaring the original position unplayable thus playing your fourth stroke! (Right?)

Not looking and playing your provisional would make no difference to your score as you would be playing your 4th anyway. But you might be playing from a more favourable position.

The best approach is to tell your opponent or marker that you are going to proceed with an unplayable lie before you shake the tree. That allows you to shake your ball down and drop within 2 clublengths of the point directly below where the ball was at a cost of one penalty stroke, leaving you playing your third stroke.

 

[CMAC]

Not looking and playing your provisional would make no difference to your score as you would be playing your 4th anyway. But you might be playing from a more favourable position.

The best approach is to tell your opponent or marker that you are going to proceed with an unplayable lie before you shake the tree. That allows you to shake your ball down and drop within 2 clublengths of the point directly below where the ball was at a cost of one penalty stroke, leaving you playing your third stroke.

thats good advice!

 

[One Planer]

Not looking and playing your provisional would make no difference to your score as you would be playing your 4th anyway. But you might be playing from a more favourable position.

The best approach is to tell your opponent or marker that you are going to proceed with an unplayable lie before you shake the tree. That allows you to shake your ball down and drop within 2 clublengths of the point directly below where the ball was at a cost of one penalty stroke, leaving you playing your third stroke

What then happens if the ball Doesn't fall out of the tree?

Are you then comitted to taking an unplayable lie penalty with the provisional ball in the middle of the fairway

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What then happens if the ball Doesn't fall out of the tree?

Are you then comitted to taking an unplayable lie penalty with the provisional ball in the middle of the fairway

I'm pretty sure that this has been asked and answered elsewhere before - but in the context of this specific question.

If the ball is stuck up in the tree on a branch and it is over a vertical line draw up from the out of bounds definition on the ground - and is stationary. Is it deemed out of bounds? If it is out of bounds (as I think it is) how long can you wait to see if it comes back in bounds. For instance if the tree branches are moving in the wind the ball could become dislodged and bounce back 'in bounds'. Is when the ball becomes stationary (in this case on the branch) in an out-of-bounds position that determines when it is in fact OOB. Or can you wait 5 mins (using time given to find a ball) to see if the ball becomes dislodged and bounces back in bounds. Clearly a ball can temporarily go over the OOB 'plane' in flight (see for example 17th Old Course) without actually being deemed OOB.

And back to the question with the above in mind. The ball is up a tree whose trunk is just inside the OOB and with half it's branches OOB - but ball cannot be seen. In seaching for ball out it drops. Let's say that it is pretty obvious to all that the ball must have come to rest on a branch 'OOB' - but this cannot be said for 100% certain. Is this the same as 'ball must be in water but not actually seen to go in the water - therefore ball cannot be said to be in the water so is deemed lost - so stroke and distance or back to tee if tee shot'?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What then happens if the ball Doesn't fall out of the tree?

Are you then comitted to taking an unplayable lie penalty with the provisional ball in the middle of the fairway

See 'Bernhard Langer up a tree'

 

[CMAC]

See 'Bernhard Langer up a tree'

sad to say I was there and witnessed this

 

[Colin L]

What then happens if the ball Doesn't fall out of the tree?

Are you then comitted to taking an unplayable lie penalty with the provisional ball in the middle of the fairway

If you have identified the ball in the tree as yours, then yes, you have to continue play with it: either do a Langer and play from the tree or it's an unplayable penalty.

@swingsitlikehogan
Since the OOB line extends vertically up and down, the ball on a bough that is over the line is OOB. If it is blown off the tree and comes to rest in bounds, I reckon it is in play, but not 100% certain. The analogy is the ball that is carried back into bounds by water. I'll check that later if it hasn't been confirmed by someone else. You certainly could not hang around for 5 minutes hoping the ball would fall favourably (it has been found after all, so 5 minutes search time is irrelevant). And if you did, you would be unduly delaying play and cop a loss of hole/2 stroke penalty for that under Rule 6-7.

There is still some unanswered question in what you ask but I'm off to the range for practice to deal with the frustration of the course being closed today.

 

[duncan mackie]

@swingsitlikehogan
Since the OOB line extends vertically up and down, the ball on a bough that is over the line is OOB. If it is blown off the tree and comes to rest in bounds, I reckon it is in play, but not 100% certain. The analogy is the ball that is carried back into bounds by water.

if a ball is on a bough OOB it's OOB, the concept of it being 'blown off the tree' is a red herring!

you either know it's on the bough, and therefore OOB at that time, or you don't - in which case you can only deal with the ball in it's position on the ground, in bounds, in the absence of any knowledge to the contrary (spectators etc).

Put another way, as asked, " Is when the ball becomes stationary (in this case on the branch) in an out-of-bounds position that determines when it is in fact OOB?" Yes.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

if a ball is on a bough OOB it's OOB, the concept of it being 'blown off the tree' is a red herring!

you either know it's on the bough, and therefore OOB at that time, or you don't - in which case you can only deal with the ball in it's position on the ground, in bounds, in the absence of any knowledge to the contrary (spectators etc).

Put another way, as asked, " Is when the ball becomes stationary (in this case on the branch) in an out-of-bounds position that determines when it is in fact OOB?" Yes.

Thanks @Colin, thanks @Duncan

 

[MashieNiblick]

What then happens if the ball Doesn't fall out of the tree?

Are you then comitted to taking an unplayable lie penalty with the provisional ball in the middle of the fairway

Decision 28/1 - When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable, indicates that you don't have to find a ball to deem it unplayable. In that case the ball had been hit into a canyon. However, as the ball was not found there was no reference point for a drop, so the only option is to proceed under the stroke and distance option under Rule 27-1 as provided by 28a. In that case no provisional had been played so the player would have to play from where he had hit his previous shot.

So really no difference to just proceeding under Rule 27-1 as if the first ball was lost.

However in the situation described in the OP a provisional ball had been played. Although referring to a slightly different sceanario, Decision 28/2 - Player Deems First Ball from Tee Unplayable, Abandons Provisional Ball and Claims He Is Lying Three with Third Ball , says

"The player may not deem the first ball from the tee unplayable, disregard the provisional ball and put another ball into play under a stroke-and-distance penalty because, having played the provisional ball, he must find the original ball before he can deem it unplayable. Unless the original ball was found, the provisional ball would automatically become the ball in play. This case differs from Decision 28/1. No provisional ball was played in that case."

So it would seem that in the OP case, if the first ball hit into the tee isn't found, then the provisional automatically becomes the ball in play. I hope I've got that right. Happy to be corrected if not.

 

[MashieNiblick]

What then happens if the ball Doesn't fall out of the tree?

Are you then comitted to taking an unplayable lie penalty with the provisional ball in the middle of the fairway

Decision 28/1 - When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable, indicates that you don’t have to find a ball to deem it unplayable. However if you can’t find the ball you have no reference point for a penalty drop under options 28b and 28c so your only option under Rule 28 is the option under 28a to proceed under the stroke and distance provisions of Rule 27-1.

However in the OP case a provisional ball was played. Although referring to a slightly different situation, Decision 28/2 - Player Deems First Ball from Tee Unplayable, Abandons Provisional Ball and Claims He Is Lying Three with Third Ball, says

“The player may not deem the first ball from the tee unplayable, disregard the provisional ball and put another ball into play under a stroke-and-distance penalty because, having played the provisional ball, he must find the original ball before he can deem it unplayable. Unless the original ball was found, the provisional ball would automatically become the ball in play.
This case differs from Decision 28/1. No provisional ball was played in that case.”

So in the OP case, as a provisional was played, if the first ball isn’t found, it would seem Rule 28 won’t apply and the provisional automatically becomes the ball in play.

I hope I have got that right. Happy to be corrected if not.

 

[Stuey01]

Decision 28/1 - When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable, indicates that you don’t have to find a ball to deem it unplayable. However if you can’t find the ball you have no reference point for a penalty drop under options 28b and 28c so your only option under Rule 28 is the option under 28a to proceed under the stroke and distance provisions of Rule 27-1.

However in the OP case a provisional ball was played. Although referring to a slightly different situation, Decision 28/2 - Player Deems First Ball from Tee Unplayable, Abandons Provisional Ball and Claims He Is Lying Three with Third Ball, says

“The player may not deem the first ball from the tee unplayable, disregard the provisional ball and put another ball into play under a stroke-and-distance penalty because, having played the provisional ball, he must find the original ball before he can deem it unplayable. Unless the original ball was found, the provisional ball would automatically become the ball in play.
This case differs from Decision 28/1. No provisional ball was played in that case.”

So in the OP case, as a provisional was played, if the first ball isn’t found, it would seem Rule 28 won’t apply and the provisional automatically becomes the ball in play.

I hope I have got that right. Happy to be corrected if not.

But the ball WAS found, albeit by the OP's father shaking the tree. It was found, and not declared lost or unplayable prior to the shaking of the tree.
The way I read it the found ball (from the tree), is the ball in play, as it has been found within 5 minutes.

The question that remains is whether a penalty is applicable as the OP's father has moved his ball by shaking the tree. I believe he is in violation of rule 13-2:
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
- the position or lie of his ball,
- the area of his intended stance or swing,
- his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
- the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,

by any of the following actions:
- pressing a club on the ground,
- moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
- creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
- removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
- removing dew, frost or water.


He has improved his lie by shaking (bending/moving) the tree (an object that is growing). The penalty is loss of hole (matchplay) or two strokes (strokeplay).

So he is laying 3 and by the sound of it would have been better off declaring it lost and putting the provisional in play, then shaking the tree to get his ball back.

 

[Stuey01]

Decision 28/1 - When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable, indicates that you don’t have to find a ball to deem it unplayable. However if you can’t find the ball you have no reference point for a penalty drop under options 28b and 28c so your only option under Rule 28 is the option under 28a to proceed under the stroke and distance provisions of Rule 27-1.

However in the OP case a provisional ball was played. Although referring to a slightly different situation, Decision 28/2 - Player Deems First Ball from Tee Unplayable, Abandons Provisional Ball and Claims He Is Lying Three with Third Ball, says

“The player may not deem the first ball from the tee unplayable, disregard the provisional ball and put another ball into play under a stroke-and-distance penalty because, having played the provisional ball, he must find the original ball before he can deem it unplayable. Unless the original ball was found, the provisional ball would automatically become the ball in play.
This case differs from Decision 28/1. No provisional ball was played in that case.”

So in the OP case, as a provisional was played, if the first ball isn’t found, it would seem Rule 28 won’t apply and the provisional automatically becomes the ball in play.

I hope I have got that right. Happy to be corrected if not.

But the ball WAS found, albeit by the OP's father shaking the tree. It was found, and not declared lost or unplayable prior to the shaking of the tree.
The way I read it the found ball (from the tree), is the ball in play, as it has been found within 5 minutes.

The question that remains is whether a penalty is applicable as the OP's father has moved his ball by shaking the tree. I believe he is in violation of rule 13-2:
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
- the position or lie of his ball,
- the area of his intended stance or swing,
- his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
- the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,

by any of the following actions:
- pressing a club on the ground,
- moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
- creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
- removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
- removing dew, frost or water.


He has improved his lie by shaking (bending/moving) the tree (an object that is growing). The penalty is loss of hole (matchplay) or two strokes (strokeplay).

So he is laying 3 and by the sound of it would have been better off declaring it lost and putting the provisional in play, then shaking the tree to get his ball back.

 

[MashieNiblick]

But the ball WAS found, albeit by the OP's father shaking the tree.

Indeed. I was answering the question posed by Gareth, i.e what if the ball doesn't fall out of the tree which I interpreted as indicating that the ball was not found.

The appropriate procedure in relation to the situation in the OP was explained by ColinL, as set out in Decisions 18-2a/28 Ball Dislodged from Tree; Circumstances in Which Player Penalised and 18-2a/29 - Ball Dislodged from Tree; Replacement of Ball Not Possible.

Follow the link in Colin's post (#2) for the full text.

 

[grizzler]

Indeed. I was answering the question posed by Gareth, i.e what if the ball doesn't fall out of the tree which I interpreted as indicating that the ball was not found.

The appropriate procedure in relation to the situation in the OP was explained by ColinL, as set out in Decisions 18-2a/28 Ball Dislodged from Tree; Circumstances in Which Player Penalised and 18-2a/29 - Ball Dislodged from Tree; Replacement of Ball Not Possible.

Follow the link in Colin's post (#2) for the full text.

my playing partner hit his ball in a bush last week. found the ball and lost it agian down a badger hole when he was trying to drag it out of the bush with a club lol he was mad, wasn't sure of the ruling so he just took a ding

 

[duncan mackie]

my playing partner hit his ball in a bush last week. found the ball and lost it agian down a badger hole when he was trying to drag it out of the bush with a club lol he was mad, wasn't sure of the ruling so he just took a ding

Rule 28, unplayable, permits substitution so the subsequent loss of the ball before dropping it doesn't change anything.

 

[Colin L]

But the ball WAS found, albeit by the OP's father shaking the tree. It was found, and not declared lost or unplayable prior to the shaking of the tree. The way I read it the found ball (from the tree), is the ball in play, as it has been found within 5 minutes........

The question that remains is whether a penalty is applicable as the OP's father has moved his ball by shaking the tree. I believe he is in violation of rule 13-2 ..........

So he is laying 3 and by the sound of it would have been better off putting the provisional in play, then shaking the tree to get his ball back.

You're going a bit astray here, Stuey, so may I mention a few things relating to what I've highlighted in your post?

not declared lost Remember that you can't declare a ball to be lost. The moment he found and identified his ball, his provisional cannot be played. You probably meant he would be better off not looking for the ball up the tree if he reckoned he would be better off playing his provisional. His best bet is likely to be, as I said, is to find his ball, tell his marker/opponent it is unplayable and either shake the ball down or if he can't, substitute another one for a drop under a one stroke penalty.

I believe he is in violation of rule 13-2 Well, no. He has accidentally moved his ball which is a breach of Rule 18-2 with a one stroke penalty. He is required to replace his ball (yes, in the tree) and if he doesn't it becomes a 2 stroke penalty. Improving your lie is a different matter altogether.

would have been better off putting the provisional in play Same as above. Not if he found his original ball.

Hope that is helpful.