Attacks in London

[snell]

No indication that it's linked to terror at the minute but a similar attempt was made in Belguim today

http://news.sky.com/story/man-tries-to-drive-into-shopping-street-at-high-speed-in-antwerp-10811487

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I feel that the only thing that can reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening (though it won't stop it) is maintaining and strengthening social cohesion between and within the various ethnic and multi-ethnic communities across the country - with the people of these communities being the 'million eyes and ears on the ground' that the security services need.

 

[Fish]

No indication that it's linked to terror at the minute but a similar attempt was made in Belguim today

http://news.sky.com/story/man-tries-to-drive-into-shopping-street-at-high-speed-in-antwerp-10811487

I think that with knives, a rifle and some unidentified liquid in the boot and with Mohamed at the wheel, it's pretty odds on a copy-cat style attack.

 

[ger147]

As there is plenty of politician bashing going around, I thought it only appropriate to give an honourable mention to 2 MP's.

First of all, Tobias Ellwood rightly deserves all the praise he has received, true courage in such circumstances. And secondly, I was moved by James Cleverly speaking about his friend and former colleague, PC Keith Palmer.

MP's are often rightly criticised at times so it's only right when they receive praise when it's due. Kudos to both of them.

 

[IanM]

I feel that the only thing that can reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening (though it won't stop it) is maintaining and strengthening social cohesion between and within the various ethnic and multi-ethnic communities across the country - with the people of these communities being the 'million eyes and ears on the ground' that the security services need.

Completely correct... and as likely as me winning the Masters.

A element (of unknown size) in one religious community is committed to the destruction of secular western culture and its replacement with a Caliphate. They don't care if we kill them as they think they'll be getting their leg over for eternity in paradise. They take their instruction from old men who think the Earth is flat and women in tight jeans cause earthquakes. (I just wish that was a joke)

Until we see mass "grassing" of offenders, expulsions from Mosques of offenders by their communities and protests of moderates on the streets , we've no chance. These don't happen cos of fear or collusion ... or both

 

[drdel]

Completely correct... and as likely as me winning the Masters.

A element (of unknown size) in one religious community is committed to the destruction of secular western culture and its replacement with a Caliphate. They don't care if we kill them as they think they'll be getting their leg over for eternity in paradise. They take their instruction from old men who think the Earth is flat and women in tight jeans cause earthquakes. (I just wish that was a joke)

Until we see mass "grassing" of offenders, expulsions from Mosques of offenders by their communities and protests of moderates on the streets , we've no chance. These don't happen cos of fear or collusion ... or both

Sadly you are near the truth. Integration is the last thing on their mind.

 

[SocketRocket]

There is no way that all officers will be armed. Firstly, there's a huge number that would refuse to carry.


Secondly, The standard of training for firearms officers in the UK is extraordinarily high. Most officers would struggle with the course. The failure rate is quite high. As is the whole reclassification and continual training. The police isn't equipped and never will be, to cope with that training resource.


So unless they dropped the standards, reduced the reclassification burden, it wouldn't happen.


Besides, there's sensible options like arming officers with tazer. Sure, it can go wrong, but so can any use of force. Like hitting someone with a telescopic baton.


Anyway, I get the impression that the attack was so quick yesterday it wouldnt have mattered what the poor officer had with him.


The way to deal with the terror threat and armed officers, is to be intelligence led as where you place them throughout the capital. They can't be everywhere, but can be strategically placed to respond.

I just dont subscribe to this type of argument. As I keep saying, most European Countries have armed Police, we are not talking about special response Officers armed to the teeth with weapons but your normal Bobby carrying a pistol. Why do people think it wouldn't work in the UK and that the training would be difficult or many would refuse. Why doesn't Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Spain and so on have problems with doing this but somehow it would be a big problem in the UK, surely if carrying a weapon was part of the job then they would just get on and do it or someone else would. Regarding the truck in Germany that drove through the Market I believe it was stopped by police shooting through the windows.

It's a different world now than the those of John Peel and Dixon of Dock Green, many people are carrying guns, it's rife with young people in gangs and drug dealers, hardly a day goes by in Birmingham or London without someone using a gun. If someone is coming at a Policeman with a weapon then the best defense is to be armed, OK sometimes it may not make a difference but the chances are that it will. Taking the other argument against that arming Police will make more criminals carry guns, where is the evidence for this again in other European countries, it's not there. As for not trusting the Police to carry guns, well I just despair at that one.

 

[Papas1982]

I just dont subscribe to this type of argument. As I keep saying, most European Countries have armed Police, we are not talking about special response Officers armed to the teeth with weapons but your normal Bobby carrying a pistol. Why do people think it wouldn't work in the UK and that the training would be difficult or many would refuse. Why doesn't Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Spain and so on have problems with doing this but somehow it would be a big problem in the UK, surely if carrying a weapon was part of the job then they would just get on and do it or someone else would. Regarding the truck in Germany that drove through the Market I believe it was stopped by police shooting through the windows.

It's a different world now than the those of John Peel and Dixon of Dock Green, many people are carrying guns, it's rife with young people in gangs and drug dealers, hardly a day goes by in Birmingham or London without someone using a gun. If someone is coming at a Policeman with a weapon then the best defense is to be armed, OK sometimes it may not make a difference but the chances are that it will. Taking the other argument against that arming Police will make more criminals carry guns, where is the evidence for this again in other European countries, it's not there. As for not trusting the Police to carry guns, well I just despair at that one.

Just one point really. The countries you listed with armed officers.

Hiw is many of them have had terrorist attacked recently?

armed officers won't deter terrorists. They expect to die, so won't fear it!

 

[SocketRocket]

Just one point really. The countries you listed with armed officers.

Hiw is many of them have had terrorist attacked recently?

armed officers won't deter terrorists. They expect to die, so won't fear it!

I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists. I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.

 

[drdel]

I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists. I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.

Yup: totally agree. The 21C society has left the unarmed Bobby days way back in history- much as we would wish they weren't.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How many times do we really think there has been a need for a fully armed police ?

Many times the same question gets brought up and we don't need a fully armed police force.

If anything it could cause more problems

 

[Deleted member 16999]

How many times do we really think there has been a need for a fully armed police ?

Many times the same question gets brought up and we don't need a fully armed police force.

If anything it could cause more problems

Totally agree, were's the proof arming all our Police would improve our's and their lives?

 

[Papas1982]

I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists. I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.

Id be happy for there to be more armed police. And for them to be sent out more often when needed. So any time where violence is even remotely possible (drugs busts, domestic violence) for example.

But having them them on the street isn't so,thing I want to see. I'd say our society is more akin to Americans than many central Europeans and I truly belive that in time our problems would rival theirs.

 

[SocketRocket]

How many times do we really think there has been a need for a fully armed police ?

Many times the same question gets brought up and we don't need a fully armed police force.

If anything it could cause more problems

By 'Fully Armed I guess you mean all police carrying a pstol? OK, please explain to me why we don't need one. I am not being difficult here, I would really like to understand why you believe that.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

What an awful statement suggesting that the Police Force is corrupt. With an organisation as large as the police there is always going to be a few bad apples but please don't point a finger at the whole organisation.

IMO I wouldn't like to see all of our police armed. Some police units now only have Clock Pistols and the thought of someone having to use a pistol (a weapon of last resort) is worrying - forget your cowboy films.

As Fish posted, this is an incident that there is little protection against. Lets hope the authorities stay away from knee jerk reactions.

My statement is purely based on facts, past incidents and knowledge.

Ian Tomlinson was UNLAWFULLY killed by a police officer, the police officer was found not guilty of manslaughter.

Does this sound like good practice from the authorities?

In the past we've had one force investigating another force where the force under investigation have made officers change statements etc, and there's plenty more.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

I didn't suggest it would stop terrorists. I am suggesting it would better protect the Police and Public and not only against terrorists.

Most police forces have had their budgets slashed to the point there's not enough officers out there on the frontline.

With this in mind, who foots the bill for providing all officers with a gun?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

By 'Fully Armed I guess you mean all police carrying a pstol? OK, please explain to me why we don't need one. I am not being difficult here, I would really like to understand why you believe that.

Because the country isn't in the state to need a fully armed police force - your local village bobby doesn't need to be armed , my local town police force don't need to be armed , the motorway police don't need to be armed.

It's not that dangerous living in this country for their to be a fully armed police force.

Yes in certain areas and in certain situations you need to have an armed presence but sorry but the UK isn't that bad an area to require every single person to be armed

 

[Old Skier]

Ian Tomlinson was UNLAWFULLY killed by a police officer, the police officer was found not guilty of manslaughter.

By judge and jury, not by the police.

 

[doublebogey7]

Having though listened to this thread and the arguments around police's averyday life becoming more dangerous I decided to do a little research to see if what appears to be true is fact. Surprisingly there were considerably more police deaths (51) in the 1980's than in any other decade in the last 120 years, followed by the previous decade (27). Since then the numbers have slowly fallen, with this decade likely to see the lowest on record, 6 to date.
One officer death is one to many and we must all continue to do all we can to further reduce these numbers. I dont feel that alianating police from the public by routinely arming them is the answer while the numbers are falling. Another case of perception at odds with reality.
PS I tried to find stats on European police force deaths for comparison but could find non.

 

[Old Skier]

Can't argue with facts.