all bunkers declared GUR

[Swango1980]

It is strange, in the sense that Course Ratings and Bogey Ratings, I assume, take into account the position of bunkers. And rightly so, they can make a big difference to how the hole is played, and make greens and parts of the fairway narrow targets.

You'd have thought taking the bunkers out of play on every hole would have a reasonable impact on these ratings. Especially at courses like Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin Course) which is well know for its deep bunkers. And yet somehow scores are still acceptable for handicap.

 

[Default Golfer]

The 2021 winter checklist said similar:
"Providing a Local Rule is in place, bunkers may be taken out of play and marked as GUR for situations such as severe or prolonged wet weather. Bunkers flooded with water, can be marked as GUR; allowing scores to still be acceptable and returned for handicap purposes. Players must be made aware of which bunkers are GUR before play. There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken ‘out of play’."

The difference now is they don't have to be marked and can be covered by a blanket description

 

[Default Golfer]

I agree taking bunkers out of play can make the course easier and it can encourage the player to be bolder with their shots knowing that relief is possible. On the flip side, there are often some very awkward lies to overcome after taking relief and it's often preferable to play from the bunker

 

[D-S]

I agree taking bunkers out of play can make the course easier and it can encourage the player to be bolder with their shots knowing that relief is possible. On the flip side, there are often some very awkward lies to overcome after taking relief and it's often preferable to play from the bunker

Not at Woodhall Spa it isn’t.

 

[Crow]

If the course is so wet that bunkers have been taken out of play then there are likely to be other on course difficulties that will offset the loss of being in a bunker such as no run out, uncut greens, playing out of heavy wet rough, etc.

 

[D-S]

If the course is so wet that bunkers have been taken out of play then there are likely to be other on course difficulties that will offset the loss of being in a bunker such as no run out, uncut greens, playing out of heavy wet rough, etc.

All of which make a nonsense of the summer course rating.

 

[wjemather]

All of which make a nonsense of the summer course rating.

Most of the time, there is very little difference in the rating values of bunkers and rough, and very few courses where all bunkers being out of play could potentially happen and would make a significant difference to the rating.

 

[D-S]

Most of the time, there is very little difference in the rating values of bunkers and rough, and very few courses where all bunkers being out of play could potentially happen and would make a significant difference to the rating.

So, as I say, quite a lot of time and effort goes into something that makes 'very little difference' to the eventual course rating. This is particularly the case at the moment with some ratings teams struggling to keep up with the process as more clubs want more tee sets rated.

 

[wjemather]

So, as I say, quite a lot of time and effort goes into something that makes 'very little difference' to the eventual course rating. This is particularly the case at the moment with some ratings teams struggling to keep up with the process as more clubs want more tee sets rated.

There are several reasons for rating teams struggling to keep pace, but bunkers are not one of them. Many teams simply don't have enough experienced volunteers (more than half of our team were new this year) - lots have been lost since the pre-WHS rating binge, and through the COVID hiatus - which also created a backlog. Also, during the last cycle, most courses only had existing single gender tee sets re-rated, so the demand for neutral gender tees wasn't met when it could have been, so it is adding additional ratings to the normal workload.

 

[D-S]

There are several reasons for rating teams struggling to keep pace, but bunkers are not one of them. Many teams simply don't have enough volunteers (more than half of our team were new volunteers this year) - lots have been lost since the pre-WHS rating binge, and through the COVID hiatus - which also created a backlog. Also, during the last cycle, most courses only had existing single gender tee sets re-rated, so the demand for neutral gender tees wasn't met when it could have been, so it is adding additional ratings to the normal workload.

Yes, I know.

 

[Crow]

All of which make a nonsense of the summer course rating.

Not if the PCC adjustment comes in when the course is playing like a swamp.

 

[wjemather]

Not if the PCC adjustment comes in when the course is playing like a swamp.

Swamps probably come under 7.2b, whereby the submission of scores for handicapping should be suspended when course conditions are exceptionally poor.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

If the course is so wet that bunkers have been taken out of play then there are likely to be other on course difficulties that will offset the loss of being in a bunker such as no run out, uncut greens, playing out of heavy wet rough, etc.

To be fair we have poorly designed and poorly draining bunkers which fill with water, often with the furthest point to the pin being full with nowhere to drop. (Thanks Mr. Hawtree!). The rest of the course is often playable long before the greenstaff can pump them out.

 

[rulefan]

I understand my County will be starting on course alterations, mixed gender tees and the first round of the 10 year review this spring.

 

[Jules rules]

I know the pre WHS rule was that a course could not declare all bunkers as GUR and had to mark individual bunkers as such and play a qualifying comp.

The Rules of Handicapping make no such reference (they only refer to number of temporary greens and course length).

From the following publication it would appear that the England Golf allows scores for handicap purposes when all bunkers are out of play.

https://www.englandgolf.org/submitting-a-general-play-score-in-winter/

What do you think - qualifier or not and what do you base it upon?

I have suggested the club contact England Golf for clarification.

Thank you . I thought the rules was in place pre WHS …

I find it difficult to accept all bunkers out of play particularly with there being numerous different options , under penalty, to drop out. Can’t really see why all need to be taken out of play. A penalty area is a penalty area the rules do not claim penalty areas have to have lovely fluffy, nicely raked sand!!… As said there are penalties to overcome the difficulty avoiding the need to play out with get it for free.

 

[rulefan]

Thank you . I thought the rules was in place pre WHS …

I find it difficult to accept all bunkers out of play particularly with there being numerous different options , under penalty, to drop out. Can’t really see why all need to be taken out of play. A penalty area is a penalty area the rules do not claim penalty areas have to have lovely fluffy, nicely raked sand!!… As said there are penalties to overcome the difficulty avoiding the need to play out with get it for free.

Prior to WHS, CONGU did not have policy. EG made their own, which was that if more than 50% were flooded then the comp was a non-qualifier.
Our course floods to a depth of over 2 metres when the flood prevention bank is overwhelmed. When the sluice gates eventually open and the water drains away, literally all the bunkers remain full of water. That could mean that all players face the potential for one or more penalties.

We deem all flooded bunkers (ie there is no spot not nearer the hole, that is playable) as GUR identified by a blue flag.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Thank you . I thought the rules was in place pre WHS …

I find it difficult to accept all bunkers out of play particularly with there being numerous different options , under penalty, to drop out. Can’t really see why all need to be taken out of play. A penalty area is a penalty area the rules do not claim penalty areas have to have lovely fluffy, nicely raked sand!!… As said there are penalties to overcome the difficulty avoiding the need to play out with get it for free.

A bunker isn't a penalty area and is handled differently under the rules.

I take your point though about having different options. However, when the flooding is so extensive most of these are taken away and the only option is a penalty to play outside the bunker if it hasn't been taken out of play.

The dilemma here is the desire by the authorities to have no off season and the condition of a lot of courses over the winter months. In reality the course rating does not reflect the challenge presented and hence it could be argued the score differential obtained is false.

Others have made the point that as we continue down this path handicaps will become less relevant which is fine but the impact on club golf will be profound. This can already be seen by the steady decline in open events, matchplay events, club knockout entries, etc. A topic for another day - off to help pump out the bunkers!

 

[Tashyboy]

Our course has 26 bunkers, quite frankly they are rammel. When they fill with water or are just sodden they are deffo unplayable. So it comes to a free drop. If the bunkers are GUR because of the rain the ground around the bunkers is not much better so there’s no real advantage in a free drop.
Not a problem at our place running a Q comp with all bunkers GUR. But I cannot speak for all course. Bondhay near Worksop has dozens and dozens of bunkers so I would be gobsmacked to see every bunker GUR.

 

[rulie]

In the preamble to Model Local Rule F-16 (Bunker Filled with Temporary Water), it says,
"The Committee...is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all bunkers filled with temporary water are ground under repair."

I would suggest that such a Local Rule is unauthorized and any round played with that Local Rule in effect is not being played by the Rules of golf.

 

[rulefan]

In the preamble to Model Local Rule F-16 (Bunker Filled with Temporary Water), it says,
"The Committee...is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all bunkers filled with temporary water are ground under repair."

I would suggest that such a Local Rule is unauthorized and any round played with that Local Rule in effect is not being played by the Rules of golf.

They can of course specify and identify all bunkers individually. Which is what we do by using a small blue flag. Our extreme situation only lasts for a day or two after the sluice gates open, when some flags are removed because the relevant bunker has a patch of 'dryish' sand