All bunkers GUR ?

[jim8flog]

It intrigues me that a round can be acceptable for handicap with all bunkers GUR. Preferred lies in bunkers, fair enough at this time. But GUR? Completely changes the game, can take much more aggressive lines without worrying if ball ends up in a bunker. Not to mention the fact that, on average, players probably end up in a few bunkers per round, and some players are horrific out of bunkers no matter the lie. So, for them, it is also a huge advantage.

I guess if the bunkers are GUR for a long period, then a some may find they get bigger cuts in handicap over time. They'll be in for a shock when we get back to normal.

I bet there is still a lot that get the jitters if they have a bunker to go over even if it not in play.

 

[rosecott]

I bet there is still a lot that get the jitters if they have a bunker to go over even if it not in play.

And I wonder how many magically find the NPR to the side of the bunker. We have had players who insisted that if you take relief from GUR, any strokes played back into it don't count.

 

[jim8flog]

I assume having bunkers under GUR is only relevant during Covid? What about when Covid passes? I seem to remember discussions here that a round could not be qualifying (in the old days) if 50% or more of bunkers were out of action. However, I'm not sure where that advice was, perhaps an England Golf instruction.

However, what about WHS. If a club decided to make all bunkers GUR after Covid, would the round be acceptable for handicap? WHS only talks about number of temporary greens and course length changes.

As you already appear to know neither the rules or guidance on the rules has anything in it to follow.

 

[Swango1980]

As you already appear to know neither the rules or guidance on the rules has anything in it to follow.

?

 

[jim8flog]

?

'To follow' is probably the wrong wording. There is no guideline seemed a bit too many guidelines.

I wonder when we get back to non covid bunker rules if it will be added to the guidelines.

 

[Swango1980]

'To follow' is probably the wrong wording. There is no guideline seemed a bit too many guidelines.

I wonder when we get back to non covid bunker rules if it will be added to the guidelines.

Apologies, I misinterpreted your response, thought you were having a dig at me, and I had missed something in the guidance. I think a comma after the word "know" in your response would have made all the difference

 

[bobmac]

Apologies, I misinterpreted your response, thought you were having a dig at me, and I had missed something in the guidance. I think a comma after the word "know" in your response would have made all the difference

No need to apologise, it's his own fault for being stingey with his commas.
And they say punctuation isn't important

 

[D-S]

We have 50 greenside and 25 fairway bunkers, so the course is well bunkered but not ridiculously so. If, for some reason, we decided to remove them all that would surely require a re rating as it would definitely mean that the CR and the slope would be reduced.
This is in effect what courses have done by making all bunkers GUR.
Do we have any raters on here who could guesstimate the likely effect? I would ask a member who is one of the County raters to try it as a paper exercise, but as we all have to carry individual rakes it is of no relevance to our course.

 

[jim8flog]

We have 50 greenside and 25 fairway bunkers, so the course is well bunkered but not ridiculously so. If, for some reason, we decided to remove them all that would surely require a re rating as it would definitely mean that the CR and the slope would be reduced.
This is in effect what courses have done by making all bunkers GUR.
Do we have any raters on here who could guesstimate the likely effect? I would ask a member who is one of the County raters to try it as a paper exercise, but as we all have to carry individual rakes it is of no relevance to our course.

The current bunkers rule is considered temporary not permanent so it does not require a rerating.

If all the bunkers were removed that would be permanent and would therefore require a rerate.

Rules of Handicapping Appendix G

 

[D-S]

The current bunkers rule is considered temporary not permanent so it does not require a rerating.

If all the bunkers were removed that would be permanent and would therefore require a rerate.

Rules of Handicapping Appendix G

We have to get a re rating if we make temporary changes to the course due to winter works though. I know this is often done as a paper exercise.

 

[jim8flog]

We have to get a re rating if we make temporary changes to the course due to winter works though. I know this is often done as a paper exercise.

I presume the county have made this decision on the basis of

i) Temporary Changes
The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when
temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the
Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores
made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and
whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

When you say a paper exercise I presume you have done your own rerating though Appendix G f which lays down the changes required on a yardage basis.

 

[rulefan]

I presume the county have made this decision on the basis of

i) Temporary Changes
The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when
temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the
Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores
made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and
whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

When you say a paper exercise I presume you have done your own rerating though Appendix G f which lays down the changes required on a yardage basis.

If the changes are dramatic (eg making a number of bunkers GUR for the whole winter) then the county/EG can make adjustments to the rating calculation by altering the figures related to the physical conditions (bunkers in this case)

 

[D-S]

I presume the county have made this decision on the basis of

i) Temporary Changes
The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when
temporary changes are being made to the golf course that may affect the
Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores
made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and
whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

When you say a paper exercise I presume you have done your own rerating though Appendix G f which lays down the changes required on a yardage basis.

We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.

 

[rulefan]

We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.

Can you imagine the amount of time and effort that it would have taken to modify the ratings of 12000 sets of tees?

 

[Old Skier]

We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.

Who is this CONGU you mention

 

[jim8flog]

We haven’t requested a re rating as we carry our own rakes and so bunkers are as normal with no preferred lies. My point was that courses that declared all their bunkers GUR for COVID have made a significant though hopefully temporary change to their course. For large changes clubs must normally apply for a temporary rating (often due to winter works) but it seems odd that CONGU have allowed clubs to ‘lose’ all their bunkers without a temporary re rating.

My understanding of how the rating works is that the Course Rating is for a scratch golfer who would not be expected to go into bunkers and is only affected by bunkers which 'ensure' an enforced lay up. So taking all bunkers out of play would not affect course rating that much.

What might be affected is slope rating which is based upon a bogey golfer.

The club could therefore could not do the rerate for themselves and the raters will probably still have enough work to do with all the courses yet to be rated in the first place.

 

[rulefan]

My understanding of how the rating works is that the Course Rating is for a scratch golfer who would not be expected to go into bunkers and is only affected by bunkers which 'ensure' an enforced lay up. So taking all bunkers out of play would not affect course rating that much.

What might be affected is slope rating which is based upon a bogey golfer.

The club could therefore could not do the rerate for themselves and the raters will probably still have enough work to do with all the courses yet to be rated in the first place.

Not quite. Both Scratch and Bogey rating considers bunkers that are within 20 yards of the landing zone (which could be 40 yards long), not necessarily on the the fairway. Greenside bunkers are in play for all players.

In theory it could be a paperwork exercise where all bunker points were set to zero and the numbers crunched again but even so ........

 

[D-S]

Can you imagine the amount of time and effort that it would have taken to modify the ratings of 12000 sets of tees?

It’s only a minority of clubs that have made all bunkers GUR, the vast majority have gone to preferred lies in bunkers. Seems strange to have to do the temporary ratings for some minor winter tee changes but you can take every bunker out and the relative difficulty of the course remains the same.

 

[rulefan]

It’s only a minority of clubs that have made all bunkers GUR, the vast majority have gone to preferred lies in bunkers. Seems strange to have to do the temporary ratings for some minor winter tee changes but you can take every bunker out and the relative difficulty of the course remains the same.

winter tee changes only affect the length of the course and the adjustment is very straightforward. Making all bunkers GUR is quite a different proposition. Each individual bunker will have its own difficulty factor (two factors if they are greenside). So without reference to all the recorded details making an adjustment would be impossible. EG has taken a pragmatic approach.

 

[rosecott]

Who is this CONGU you mention

He is alive and well.