all bunkers declared GUR

[jim8flog]

I know the pre WHS rule was that a course could not declare all bunkers as GUR and had to mark individual bunkers as such and play a qualifying comp.

The Rules of Handicapping make no such reference (they only refer to number of temporary greens and course length).

From the following publication it would appear that the England Golf allows scores for handicap purposes when all bunkers are out of play.

https://www.englandgolf.org/submitting-a-general-play-score-in-winter/

What do you think - qualifier or not and what do you base it upon?

I have suggested the club contact England Golf for clarification.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Just shows how the game is getting 'dumbed down'.........

Only a few years away from allowing mulligans in my opinion.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My previous club had real problems with its bunkers and we quite often had full GUR on bunkers. It makes the game so much easier as shots were risk free. You can aim at fairway bunkers, go straight at the cruelly placed green front bunker etc. Hit the green or fairway, great, if not then so what?

It's Mickey Mouse stuff if they allow rounds like that to count. That isn't based on golf snobbery, it's based on real experience.

 

[jim8flog]

My previous club had real problems with its bunkers and we quite often had full GUR on bunkers. It makes the game so much easier as shots were risk free. You can aim at fairway bunkers, go straight at the cruelly placed green front bunker etc. Hit the green or fairway, great, if not then so what?

It's Mickey Mouse stuff if they allow rounds like that to count. That isn't based on golf snobbery, it's based on real experience.

Given the nearest point of relief with many of our bunkers I would sooner be playing out of them than playing from the side of them. Mind yesterday I did not go in to a single one.
Talking in the bar today about some of the stories about what some players think is the nearest point of relief leads one to wonder what goes on in medals generally.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Anyone with a HI based upon 8 rounds containing a few or more where all bunkers are GUR will, I suggest, have an artificially low HI and will have difficulty playing to the CH of another track - or indeed their own.

 

[rulefan]

Anyone with a HI based upon 8 rounds containing a few or more where all bunkers are GUR will, I suggest, have an artificially low HI and will have difficulty playing to the CH of another track - or indeed their own.

A player may now take relief outside the bunker at the cost of a penalty stroke
The view of EG re all bunkers out of play is "There is no formal answer to this, from a Course Rating position it is unlikely to change the ratings so shouldn’t be an issue."

 

[Steven Rules]

Given the nearest point of relief with many of our bunkers I would sooner be playing out of them than playing from the side of them.[t/QUOTE]
Me too!

Anyone with a HI based upon 8 rounds containing a few or more where all bunkers are GUR will, I suggest, have an artificially low HI and will have difficulty playing to the CH of another track - or indeed their own.

If it is the same 'easy' for everyone on the day then the PCC should reflect this and go some way to neutralising the lower than normal scores across the board.

Not a big issue in my opinion and the authorities seem to agree.

I know the pre WHS rule was that a course could not declare all bunkers as GUR and had to mark individual bunkers as such and play a qualifying comp.

The preamble to Model Local Rule F-16 (Bunker Filled with Temporary Water) still says:

The Committee should only use this Local Rule on a case-by-case basis and is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all flooded bunkers are ground under repair.

 

[salfordlad]

As Steven Rules notes:
The preamble to Model Local Rule F-16 (Bunker Filled with Temporary Water) still says:

The Committee should only use this Local Rule on a case-by-case basis and is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all flooded bunkers are ground under repair.

Which sets up a fundamental clash of priorities for some clubs from time to time. The Committee is responsible for deciding what the golfing challenge on their course is, not the rules of golf. And many 'average' clubs struggle with maintaining bunkers in the condition that they need and were built for - so when weather and other maintainance priorities demand, many clubs just go "Bunkers are out of play". This may, but not necessarily, mean their scratch/slope ratings are inappropriate while this out of play period ensues. Personally, I think there are times when that is the better approach than the purely rules-focussed approach in the preamble to the MLR.

 

[jim8flog]

As Steven Rules notes:
The preamble to Model Local Rule F-16 (Bunker Filled with Temporary Water) still says:

The Committee should only use this Local Rule on a case-by-case basis and is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all flooded bunkers are ground under repair.

.

As a club we were aware of this rule etc but the discussion within the club is really who is responsible for determining whether or not a competition is qualifying as the EG golf guide says cards can still be submitted when all bunkers are are GUR.

Added to that is the fact that the majority of bunkers were not actually flooded but looking like the side of a volcano where the heavy rains had created deep furrows when the rain had washed through them.

Probably like the majority of clubs we do not have the number of green staff available (or necessary number of signs) to be able to go out and inspect every bunker, coupled with the fact that early morning priority is given to mowing the greens.

 

[wjemather]

I know the pre WHS rule was that a course could not declare all bunkers as GUR and had to mark individual bunkers as such and play a qualifying comp.

The Rules of Handicapping make no such reference (they only refer to number of temporary greens and course length).

From the following publication it would appear that the England Golf allows scores for handicap purposes when all bunkers are out of play.

https://www.englandgolf.org/submitting-a-general-play-score-in-winter/

What do you think - qualifier or not and what do you base it upon?

I have suggested the club contact England Golf for clarification.

There is no limit to the number of bunkers that may be taken out of play. As such, scores remain acceptable for handicapping and competition rounds are considered pre-registered (i.e. comps should not be made "non-qualifying"). The effect on resultant handicaps is negligible.

 

[wjemather]

Anyone with a HI based upon 8 rounds containing a few or more where all bunkers are GUR will, I suggest, have an artificially low HI and will have difficulty playing to the CH of another track - or indeed their own.

This seems to be based on an assumption that taking relief from a bunker that is GUR affords an easier shot; however, the opposite is often the case.

 

[Swango1980]

There is no limit to the number of bunkers that may be taken out of play. As such, scores remain acceptable for handicapping and competition rounds are considered pre-registered (i.e. comps should not be made "non-qualifying"). The effect on resultant handicaps is negligible.

Does the course rating not partly take into account the location of bunkers? If so, if they are all out of play, how does that not have an impact on a players handicap. On the rare occasions that all bunkers were out of play at my old club, the game became so much easier off the tee.. 1st, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 17th holes all had bunker issues off the tee. Either they would be in my landing zone and make the fairway about 30-40% smaller, or I had to play a much shorter club and lay up short to avoid going in them at all. As soon as they were out of play, I could just open the shoulders and not worry, knowing I'd just get to drop out of them anyway. That is not to mention the impact of taking greenside bunkers out of play, where they can allow a player to play more aggressively at pins. I appreciate on occasion this might end up in a difficult dropping area if the player goes in them, although more generally it is my experience handicap golfers much rather play of grass than be in the bunker (hence the relief they often show when their ball just stops short of a bunker).

So, from a logical perspective, it is hard to see how having all bunkers GUR has a negligible impact on handicaps. If this was true, why have bunkers at all? Even if there is any justification whatsoever that dropping out of a greenside bunker gives a harder shot than from the bunker itself (and therefore we put this issue to one side), why have fairway bunkers?

 

[woofers]

The link to the England Golf website shown in the previous posts no longer works and I can't find any reference to the subject (if all bunkers are GUR can a score still count as qualifying?) elsewhere. Does anyone know of an official decision on this please?

 

[rulefan]

I believe that pre WHS, EG were the only authority to relate GUR bunkers with Qualifying scores. They specified that if over 50% were GUR the course was non-qualifying. That was a UDI ruling made by the then chair of EG Rules & Handicapping Committee. That is no longer the case.

 

[Jules rules]

Does anybody know when we were first allowed to declare all bunkers GUR and still be able to have a qualifying competition?

 

[rulefan]

Does anybody know when we were first allowed to declare all bunkers GUR and still be able to have a qualifying competition?

When WHS was introduced EG withdrew their ruling.

 

[Default Golfer]

I believe that the 2022 edition of EG's Winter Golf Checklist was the first not to require individual bunkers to be specifically marked as GUR. All bunkers on a hole can be GUR with the natural extension (confirmed by county) that all bunkers on a course can be GUR and scores still be acceptable for handicap.

 

[rulefan]

Post #17 is correct.
This is what it had to say:

Bunkers
Scores are still acceptable for handicap purposes when bunkers are taken out of play, having been individually marked as GUR. This would apply for situations such as severe or prolonged wet weather, or during maintenance work.
In situations where there are multiple bunkers that need to be designated GUR, it is acceptable to define them along the lines of ‘all greenside bunkers on Hole 4’ (or ‘all bunkers on Hole 4’)’, via a notice to players and without having to place GUR signs in all bunkers.
There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken‘out of play’

 

[D-S]

All that fuss when rating - measuring bunker proximity to green, distance from landing zones, checking depth of bunkers, seeing how much of the green they cover for the approach shot etc. etc. and if they are all out of play, irrespective if a course has 9 or 199 bunkers, then not only scores are acceptable but the slope & CR is unchanged.
I think Woodhall Spa is a touch easier with no bunkers in play and I am sure they are some of the main reasons for the Hotchkin having one of the highest slope ratings in the UK.

 

[wjemather]

The 2021 winter checklist said similar:
"Providing a Local Rule is in place, bunkers may be taken out of play and marked as GUR for situations such as severe or prolonged wet weather. Bunkers flooded with water, can be marked as GUR; allowing scores to still be acceptable and returned for handicap purposes. Players must be made aware of which bunkers are GUR before play. There is no limit on the number of bunkers that can be taken ‘out of play’."