3 minute search rule

[Lord Tyrion]

This is the second time this has been said. Maybe down here we just find little loopholes to situations, but I’m not short of mates, I have a laugh wherever I go. I think people who time others would struggle much much more. If you are a timer are you popular ( with real people not assholes ) In my experience them sorts are not liked at all. Have a laugh be a bit chilled. Not annaly retentive.

I've never timed a search, I go off what 3 mins feels like but when it is called that is the end. I suspect when my pp and I search we call way early, rarely more than 2 mins. I've called time on a search of my own, found my ball within seconds but sucked it up. It is how it works.

My point was a genuine one, although I suspect to a joke question. You don't have to help look for an partners ball, it just tends to be the pleasant thing to do. It would be a quiet rest of the round if you didn't help search for a partners ball.

Williamalex1 - a relation or the real deal? I'm going latter.

 

[Swango1980]

Yeah search only begins when you arrive and begin searching. It doesn't account for others searching on your behalf. In the other thread I posed it the other way round as well, you arrive where your ball probably is, but stand still with your eyes shut waiting for your playing partners to get there so they can help you - otherwise you're harming your chances of finding it by starting the search on your own!

The rules are silly sometimes.

I agree with that point. I usually drive my ball further than the people in my group. If they hit it in the trees, they often have the benefit of everyone helping to look for their ball. If I hit it in the trees, I often like to go to search for mine, whilst they are looking for theirs or going to play their shots (assuming I won't be in their way). I do this to try and keep the game flowing. Sadly, it often means that by the time they've finished their business, it is already over 3 minutes before they come over to help me, so I have to tell them not to worry about it and move on if I haven't found it. Sometimes I wonder should I just hold back, and only start my search when they are in a position to help at the same time.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

With my too many decades experience of playing golf and looking for balls - I know what 5minutes feels like - and so it isn't that hard to know what approaching 3minutes feels like. And so when searching for a.n.other's ball - when I get that feeling I call it out. Then up to the player to agree or disagree with my feeling that time is almost up.

It's a rule and, especially in a competition, we each have a duty of care to all other competitors to remain aware of the time a player is looking and to point out when we think 3mins is approaching...

3mins isn't long, but if it had always been 3mins nobody would complain. We'd just get on with it.

 

[USER1999]

I time it in medals, and probably would in match play knock outs. I wouldn't bother in the Saturday swindle, it's just not that important to me.

 

[Swango1980]

This is the second time this has been said. Maybe down here we just find little loopholes to situations, but I’m not short of mates, I have a laugh wherever I go. I think people who time others would struggle much much more. If you are a timer are you popular ( with real people not assholes ) In my experience them sorts are not liked at all. Have a laugh be a bit chilled. Not annaly retentive.

You come 2nd in a big competition. The person that wins, beating you on countback, spends 5 minutes looking for his ball, and then finds it and plays on. It is obvious he has had over 3 minutes, and many people have witnessed it, as perhaps it happened on the 1st holes when groups behind, and people at clubhouse, saw it unfold.

It is decided that his win stands, as nobody wants to be considered a ( Mod Edit) Are you happy with the outcome. If you are, I think many others would not be happy. If you are not happy with the outcome, at what point would you be happy (i.e. not happy with 2 minutes over the timeframe, but happy with 10 seconds. Where do you draw the line?"

I believe the worst thing in golf, outside blatant cheating, is people that bully and criticise others who call out rules infringements. Most who do so are protecting the rights of themselves and the rest of the field. Fair enough, there may be one or 2 who take delight in penalising players, and don't try and warn players they are about to break a rule before they do so (i.e. only wait until after the shot before telling a player they are playing off the wrong tee), so I understand criticism of that type of behaviour. But not simply for calling a breach of a rule if it is clear that that rule has been broken

 

[Orikoru]

I've never timed a search, I go off what 3 mins feels like but when it is called that is the end. I suspect when my pp and I search we call way early, rarely more than 2 mins. I've called time on a search of my own, found my ball within seconds but sucked it up. It is how it works.

My point was a genuine one, although I suspect to a joke question. You don't have to help look for an partners ball, it just tends to be the pleasant thing to do. It would be a quiet rest of the round if you didn't help search for a partners ball.

I think you misunderstood his question actually, he was talking about letting his partners look for HIS ball - not refusing to help them look for theirs.

 

[IanM]

Like calling anything to do with comment on rules.... it can be done well, or badly!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I think you misunderstood his question actually, he was talking about letting his partners look for HIS ball - not refusing to help them look for theirs.

I have gone back and re-read it. Yes you are right.

 

[Orikoru]

If it was done by everyone no, but it’s done by hardly anyone. We have on here people who do, or say they do. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest I wouldn’t even remember it as I said, I have no idea how long I looked. I was according to the traffic warden 10 sec over which he only informed me of after I holed for birdie. I took it as I’m not going to be accused of breaking the rules. But it takes a certain sort of c..t to do that. I think most normal people would agree. I actually shot 5 under par gross but had to take 3 under par. A good game by anyone’s standards , although some on here think that’s not a good standard of golf. Doesn’t happen often as I’m 52 so to have it ruined by a complete plum wasn’t very nice.

That's actually incorrect then - because if you exceeded the three minutes search before finding the ball, and then played it, then it was the wrong ball. After the three minutes that ball is lost and you either play your provisional if you hit one, or back to the tee if you didn't. So he was incorrect not to tell you before you hit it, and I don't know what the correct ruling is going forward. I'm inclined to say you played it in good faith thinking it was within three minutes, and he missed the opportunity to tell you otherwise at the correct junction, therefore no penalty.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

By the way I am over 50 so it isn’t that bad. I’ve never wanted to be a professional because as you correctly point out 1 handicap ain’t winning money on the tour. But I regularly beat so called pros at pro ams. I have been lower but being a shop keeper never really appealed to me as there’s not really any money to be made. I’m just a club golfer who has been playing since a child. I’ve been educated on here, maybe a bit long in the tooth and seen numerous variations of cheating some obvious others have took a keen eye to spot. As I’m sure you can imagine cheating at a sport you love is a real crime and you are only cheating yourself at the end of the day. I’ve never knowingly breached any rule as for my main point of 3 mins I just think it should go back to 5 mins as this time of year there is so many leaves on the floor it takes longer to find. This is all I was saying.

I agree with most of what you say regards rule breaking (through ignorance and/or cheating), and agree that some of the new rules are annoying. But I thought that your anti-high handicapper posts were just ignorant and deserved criticism.

 

[Swango1980]

That's actually incorrect then - because if you exceeded the three minutes search before finding the ball, and then played it, then it was the wrong ball. After the three minutes that ball is lost and you either play your provisional if you hit one, or back to the tee if you didn't. So he was incorrect not to tell you before you hit it, and I don't know what the correct ruling is going forward. I'm inclined to say you played it in good faith thinking it was within three minutes, and he missed the opportunity to tell you otherwise at the correct junction, therefore no penalty.

Actually, that would apply in Match Play, where his opponent would need to bring up the rules breach asap, otherwise they lose their right for it to be applied.

In a stroke play competition, his ball became lost once he exceeded the 3-minute search. However, he would then have needed to take stroke and distance penalty. He did not, and therefore would the penalty not be disqualification? Albeit, he was unable to rectify this at the time as he was only informed after finishing the hole (well, he could have rectified it by going back, but I can see why he wouldn't want to, and the breach should have been brought up immediately so he could consider playing assuming his ball was lost.

It is an interesting ruling. Would the Committee be correct in applying the 2-shot penalty in these circumstances, even though had he gone back to the tee he might have got in even worse trouble? Also, if I was the player, I'd either agree I was over 3-minutes and take the penalty on the chin, or I'd say it may have been within 3-minutes if nobody genuinely times it. After all, who can time 3 minutes and 10 seconds in their head?

 

[Orikoru]

Actually, that would apply in Match Play, where his opponent would need to bring up the rules breach asap, otherwise they lose their right for it to be applied.

In a stroke play competition, his ball became lost once he exceeded the 3-minute search. However, he would then have needed to take stroke and distance penalty. He did not, and therefore would the penalty not be disqualification? Albeit, he was unable to rectify this at the time as he was only informed after finishing the hole (well, he could have rectified it by going back, but I can see why he wouldn't want to, and the breach should have been brought up immediately so he could consider playing assuming his ball was lost.

It is an interesting ruling. Would the Committee be correct in applying the 2-shot penalty in these circumstances, even though had he gone back to the tee he might have got in even worse trouble? Also, if I was the player, I'd either agree I was over 3-minutes and take the penalty on the chin, or I'd say it may have been within 3-minutes if nobody genuinely times it. After all, who can time 3 minutes and 10 seconds in their head?

If he believed the ball was found within 3 minutes then he proceeded correctly. I don't think it would be fair to punish him with DQ for playing the wrong ball when he didn't have the information required - it was kept from him by the other player. He proceeded with what he believed to be the correct ball in good faith.

Either way you can't just apply a 2 shot penalty can you? I don't think there's any scenario where that's correct. You either DQ him for playing the wrong ball (amazingly harsh for the reason I said above), or you agree that he played the correct ball in good faith and it's no penalty. You can't just add a two shot penalty for wrong ball because that means he didn't go back and finish the hole with the correct ball.

 

[67 under par]

If he believed the ball was found within 3 minutes then he proceeded correctly. I don't think it would be fair to punish him with DQ for playing the wrong ball when he didn't have the information required - it was kept from him by the other player. He proceeded with what he believed to be the correct ball in good faith.

Either way you can't just apply a 2 shot penalty can you? I don't think there's any scenario where that's correct. You either DQ him for playing the wrong ball (amazingly harsh for the reason I said above), or you agree that he played the correct ball in good faith and it's no penalty. You can't just add a two shot penalty for wrong ball because that means he didn't go back and finish the hole with the correct ball.

Just to confirm this was a stapleford comp.

 

[Orikoru]

Just to confirm this was a stapleford comp.

Ah ok, I suppose you just blob the hole rather than DQ. I still don't think it's right though because you weren't given the opportunity to play the correct ball because you weren't told in time.

 

[doublebogey7]

Well the plot thickens, I decided early on not to respond to the OP, as he was then clearly in a foul mood and it wasn't then clear why. Now we an apology and a clearer picture of why he posted as he did.
Firstly I agree that most people don't time a search, in fact I would only do so if it was clear from the outside that were going to have great difficulty in finding the ball. Secondly in the circumstances now described I would have carried on playing as if I had found the ball within time and let the fellow competitor raise it with the committee, which I doubt they would have done.
At club level I doubt given little evidence available and the lack of a timely intervention that any committee would have found in the FC favour. Having said that I feel it is important that FCs abide by their responsibilities to the rest of the field, but in doing so they must also act in the interests of those they are playing with and ensure that any rules infringements are notified as soon as they are known.

 

[Foxholer]

totally agree what sort of traffic warden mentality pulls someone for a 10 sec overun. Let me tell you he’s stock has gone down considerably, we already thought he was a c..t now it’s confirmed. No friends because of the way he conducts himself, he’s a director of the club too. You know that special breed who have achieved nothing maybe management working for someone. They love there little bit of sway. They are not to clued up on how to make friends.

Part of the 'attraction' of golf, for me, has always been the 'personal integrity' of the application of The Rules - and the pretty fantastic way The Rules are actually written. As Golf, as we know it, was originally a pastime played for 'Gentlemen' including members of military and legal professions, it stands to reason that 'integrity' and compliance to The Rules, even before they were put in written form, was essential.

While it's legitimate to (attempt to) 'stretch' them in the way Seve used to attempt, even he would not actually break any, because that's cheating! And knowingly breaking a Rule of Golf makes you a cheat, something rather frowned upon in Golf but not necessarily so in other sports - like Football and Rugby!

While I consider 3 mins to be a little short (I'd prefer 4), that's what Rule makers have decided, so that's what my group play! In a competition, I'd definitely ensure that someone 'starts the clock' before searching begins. That takes any controversy about whether search has over-run or not.

Your description of the 'rules stickler', starting with 'C' and ends with 'T' has the 2 letters between as 'dots'. But it seems to me that a description of you is pretty similar - except with 3 letters as 'dots'! And, to me, that's probably a worse (or perhaps 'encompassing') description!

Just to confirm this was a stapleford comp.

I trust you mean Stableford!

 

[chrisd]

Oh I didn’t realise that sorry. Well all’s well that ends well. Got quite a bit more sense today and except hole heartedly that I could of been a lot politer. It’s the essex in me we are a tad aggressive. Sorry. I wish all contributors the best. I’ll get myself a stop watch 😂

Good post. Most people on here are just ordinary golfers and will argue the toss on any subject and it us a great forum to be in because it doesn't get too out of hand. I posted that I do time my search, but i don't always in bounce games to be honest, if there's nothing at stake, but if I do go over the time I would say so and blob the hole.

 

[patricks148]

If it was done by everyone no, but it’s done by hardly anyone. We have on here people who do, or say they do. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest I wouldn’t even remember it as I said, I have no idea how long I looked. I was according to the traffic warden 10 sec over which he only informed me of after I holed for birdie. I took it as I’m not going to be accused of breaking the rules. But it takes a certain sort of c..t to do that. I think most normal people would agree. I actually shot 5 under par gross but had to take 3 under par. A good game by anyone’s standards , although some on here think that’s not a good standard of golf. Doesn’t happen often as I’m 52 so to have it ruined by a complete plum wasn’t very nice.

i'm not sure i would take that too well either TBH, he should have said at 3 mins thats your time up, not let you go over and play it to the holes completion. i would say that was perhaps against the spirit of the game.

I do time the search but only in MP as i have had a few instances where oppo have carried on looking for balls long after 3 mins even 5 on occasions and unless you can prove its over the time limit its your words against theirs, so i got a cheap stop watch and in a MP situation out it comes as soon as we start the search

 

[67 under par]

I agree with most of what you say regards rule breaking (through ignorance and/or cheating), and agree that some of the new rules are annoying. But I thought that your anti-high handicapper posts were just ignorant and deserved criticism.

I have apologised already for that, but I will point out that I’ve had people telling me I’m useless playing off 1 at 52 years of age. I suggest you speak to them because god knows what they’d say to a 28 handicapper.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I have apologised already for that, but I will point out that I’ve had people telling me I’m useless playing off 1 at 52 years of age. I suggest you speak to them because god knows what they’d say to a 28 handicapper.

I think you'll find that was me, and all I was doing was suggesting that there's a lot better than you out there who aren't critical of high handicappers (and plenty of them are older than you too), so perhaps you shouldn't have tried to come across as the big I am.