2 rule queries

[0]

couple of rule queries that happened last week and the answer might be useful for everyone.........

1)Player A played his Tee shot then declared it lost from the Tee as it went into the trees, played a second ball then walked up and found his first, playing partners said he had to play it as it was found within 5 mins...........

2)On addressing a fairway shot or putt the clubhead touches the ball..........

Pretty sure I know the answers but havent a rule book to hand.....

 

[Losttheplot]

1,
you have to play the second ball as you 'declared' the first lost. You cannot declare a ball lost, play another then find and play the first. That's what the 'provisional' ball is for which he should have done.

2,
I think its a penalty of 1 stroke. You cannot touch the ball.
(not 100% but I think this is the answer)

 

[Whereditgo]

1 - There is no such thing as "declaring a ball lost" - but by not declaring the 2nd as a provisional it becomes the ball in play as soon as he makes a stroke at it (on the tee box) or places it on the fairway (if the original stroke had been made from the fairway).

 

[Ethan]

1. Depends. If player properly declared the second ball a provisional, then first ball was in play if found within 5, but if player didn't declare the provo properly (and saying 'I'll play another' is not a declaration of a provisional), second tee shot is in play.

2. Touching is OK, moving (such that it takes up a new position, not just rocks) is not.

 

[chrisd]

1 ... you cannot declare a ball lost at any stage,but, as he didn't declare the second ball a "provisional" it became the ball in play (under penalty) as soon as he placed it ready to play. The 1st ball was then irrelevent


2 .. You can touch the ball withouth penalty so long as it doesn't move off its axis .. if it did then there are panalties


Chris

 

[Losttheplot]

You can declare a ball lost, immediately and play 3 off the tee. If you go on to find it then that's irrelevant as you have announced that the ball is declared lost and your playing 3 off the tee.
Announce your playing a provisional incase you don't find it is fine.

 

[Losttheplot]

Curiously if I hit a tee shot and the ball goes in the middle of a large group of bushes and waist high grass I know I won't find it so why can't I declare it lost?

Also after 5 minutes of looking you can't find your ball you do declare it lost. So it is possible to declare a ball lost.

 

[Oddsocks]

i got penalised by the first ruling of a lost ball before. Sprayed one right off the tee and it landed deep in the woods at the side of the ladies tee, i declared the ball lost and went to reload when the lady playing in our group pipes up and says " dont worry i can see it "... after a mutter of "oh bugger" i proceeded to take 4 swipes at it to get it from the woods and back into play.

Had i known the rules in more detail i would have taken the one stroke penaulty and played 3 from the tee, instead an 8 on our par 4 ruined a medal card. Id does pay to know the rules in better detail....

 

[Ethan]

Curiously if I hit a tee shot and the ball goes in the middle of a large group of bushes and waist high grass I know I won't find it so why can't I declare it lost?

Also after 5 minutes of looking you can't find your ball you do declare it lost. So it is possible to declare a ball lost.

Well, not quite. The point of 'declaring' is that you exercise a choice. After 5 minutes, the ball is lost and you no longer have a choice. However, if you hit a tee shot, and then play a second ball without declaring it a provisional properly, you have in effect rendered the first ball lost/out of play.

In the past, you could declare a ball lost. There was a famous incident in a top amateur event where 2 players were on a tough par-4. Player 1 hits his second shot into the crap. Then he hits a provisional, and holes out. He immediately declared the first ball lost. Player 2 headed off into the crap and finds the first ball, but Player 1 had correctly exercised his right to declare it lost. That rule has now changed.

 

[Losttheplot]

Ethan thats a good example of the ruling.
I wasn't aware it had changed. I always thought you can declare a ball lost immediately.

To be honest though it would have to be some serious rough/trees to declare a ball 'lost' without even looking for it.


I always thought when your looking for a ball and don't find it and you declare it lost then if while walking out the rough you spot it, you cannot play it as you have declared it 'lost'. ???

 

[chrisd]

I was certain that you couldn't declare a ball lost as it happened in a 4BBB final with me and my partner

My partner pull hooked out of bounds, or so we thought. we had a quick look and he said "dont worry I'll give it up as lost". I was in a good position anyway. We then walked 20 yards and found his ball in the light rough. Our opponent said that he had declared it lost and can't play it. We had our Secretary (a rules man) walking with us as referee and he quickly confirmed that you can't declare a ball lost in any circumstance. As Ethan rightly says after 5 minutes it just becomes lost, until then you, or anyone, can find and require you to play it, unless you played a second ball without declaring a provisional


Chris

 

[0]

I presume Whereditgo and Chrisd are referring to the new rule which I am unaware of as you could certainly 'declare' before that, thanks for highlighting it, maybe you could post up what the new rule states?

 

[viscount17]

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=27

easier if you go here

an R&A official said at The Open (or maybe the Ryder Cup) last year 'if you don't want to find it, play another off the tee without declaring a provisional'

(the provisional has to be played off the tee before you move forward to search)

 

[Losttheplot]

As Ethan rightly says after 5 minutes it just becomes lost, until then you, or anyone, can find and require you to play it, unless you played a second ball without declaring a provisional

So what's stopping you hitting your ball into the crap, getting another out and just playing that ball, forgetting to announce it's a provisional??
I know it's not in the spirit of the game but it's no different from being able to declare a ball lost and I'm sure some people will do it.

 

[chrisd]

So what's stopping you hitting your ball into the crap, getting another out and just playing that ball, forgetting to announce it's a provisional??
I know it's not in the spirit of the game but it's no different from being able to declare a ball lost and I'm sure some people will do it.

Absolutely nothing!


I never quite understand "spirit of the game" in a rules context. If the rules say you can or can't do something I don't see "spirit" as important, what you did is either ok or not. For me, gamesmanship is not "in the spirit" if its excessive but I read people say things like "using a measuring device is against the spirit of golf" that, sorry, is a load of tosh!

Chris

 

[Losttheplot]

So Chris would you purposely hit another ball and not declare it a provisional??

Just curious to how far you'd take the rule

 

[USER1999]

Yes, if I didn't want to find the original.

However, 99 times out of 100, I'd go looking for it, hoping to find a decent lie. If I found it, I can always declare it unplayable, and go back for 3 off the tee anyway.

 

[Ethan]

Yes, if I didn't want to find the original.

However, 99 times out of 100, I'd go looking for it, hoping to find a decent lie. If I found it, I can always declare it unplayable, and go back for 3 off the tee anyway.

That option is also open and often forgotten. Kevin Na's caddy tried to persuade him to go back to the tee but he decided to have a bash. Then another bash etc etc.

Playing 3 off the tee (i.e. not declaring a ball a provisional and thereby putting it into play) is perfectly permissible, often wise and no breach of etiquette.

 

[chrisd]

Yes, if I didn't want to find the original.

However, 99 times out of 100, I'd go looking for it, hoping to find a decent lie. If I found it, I can always declare it unplayable, and go back for 3 off the tee anyway.

I would probably do what Murph has said. I would always do what gave me the best chance of holing out in the fewest shots. That is, so long as I was obeying the rules of golf.

There is no such thing as "spirit" v rules. The rules are there for your benefit as well to penalise you and you should always consider where you can benefit from their use as too often, for me anyway, they hurt you


Chris

 

[0]

So Chris would you purposely hit another ball and not declare it a provisional??

Just curious to how far you'd take the rule

but remember thats cost you stroke AND distance so you are now 3 off the tee whereas if a provisional is declared you might find it on a good lie even in the jungle, if not then declare it unplayable and take a direct line to flag, 2 club lenghts or back to the Tee and play 3 so I see absolutely no real benefit in not declaring a provisional apart from speeding up play