World Handicap System

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I understand the WHS guidelines make a strong point any organised comps are played as Acceptable Rounds. Probably to.encourage clubs not to organise comps on their system and set them as non qualifying.

However, it is a step too far to put demands on golfers who are playing regular knock and have their own routines like gimmes that dont follow rules. What if players refused to sign up? It is crazy in my opinion. Fair enough, club could ask them and maybe encourage them to.give it a go. But, if no appetite for it, forget it.

We have seniors go out monday and friday mornings in their own regular get togethers. There is a society goes out every Sunday morning. To be fair, none go through computer anyway. But, at no point as handicap secretary, will I ever demand them to enter them as Acceptable rounds. If they approached me and asked if they could do so, then I'd certainly see if I can sort it for them. If they want to continue doing what they do, have their own informal.handicap system and have gimmes they are welcome.

I doubt WHS would enforce this on golfers, I think it is an overly literal interpretation by your club.

i believe that this is where we are. Being required to make our rollup comp a qualifier...and of course we do not want it to be - especially over winter when there are no other qualifiers...not then and not ever.

Some mention about how it would enable the club to test out our WHS set up...really? - not convinced. This seems an unnecessary issue when in general we are a well run and inclusive members club. I would like to help defuse. Would be good to be pointed to something that says that it is at the discretion of the club if it wishes to make an member organised comp a Q-comp - that there is nothing in the WHS rules that mandates that it must be - even although we manage our little comp through the club competition and tee-booking system.

 

[rulefan]

Extracts from GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING AS APPLIED WITHIN GB&I

G2.1a (1) Authorized Formats of Play
The authorized formats of play that are acceptable for handicap purposes within GB&I are broadly the same as under the CONGU® system. Other countries in the world may have a narrower or wider range of acceptable formats.
It is a requirement in GB&I that players pre-register on the day if they wish their scores to be used for handicapping purposes both for competitions and for General Play. Clubs will need to have procedures in place for this, and with increasing computerization of handicapping they may find that their software will have an inbuilt pre-registration facility. WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as rollups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.

G2.1a (2) Pre-Registration Prior To Play
In GB&I it is a requirement that all rounds for handicapping purposes (other than those used for the Initial Handicap Award) must be pre-registered either through the computer software or manually. Entering a competition or being named in a draw or a booking system is not in itself pre-registration. Registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee. A round has not started until the player has teed off; and any player who for whatever reason does not start his/her round after pre-registering must be removed from the event and must not have a score posted on his/her handicap record.

 

[Wildboy370]

On the statement, within the rules of golf, our club through winter as most now seem to do play off fairway mats. But we also allow anyone who doesn’t like or feels they can’t play off the mat to pick and place at the nearest point of first cut. We had big debate as to wether this is within rules of golf as it’s a local ruling and maybe covered by abnormal conditions. Does any one know if we will be able to play qualifying comps and register them under WHS doing the two options ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Extracts from GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING AS APPLIED WITHIN GB&I

G2.1a (1) Authorized Formats of Play
The authorized formats of play that are acceptable for handicap purposes within GB&I are broadly the same as under the CONGU® system. Other countries in the world may have a narrower or wider range of acceptable formats.
It is a requirement in GB&I that players pre-register on the day if they wish their scores to be used for handicapping purposes both for competitions and for General Play. Clubs will need to have procedures in place for this, and with increasing computerization of handicapping they may find that their software will have an inbuilt pre-registration facility. WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as rollups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.

G2.1a (2) Pre-Registration Prior To Play
In GB&I it is a requirement that all rounds for handicapping purposes (other than those used for the Initial Handicap Award) must be pre-registered either through the computer software or manually. Entering a competition or being named in a draw or a booking system is not in itself pre-registration. Registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee. A round has not started until the player has teed off; and any player who for whatever reason does not start his/her round after pre-registering must be removed from the event and must not have a score posted on his/her handicap record.

Many thanks for this. Pretty ambiguous IMO in the way that in 2.1a (1) it talks about regular informal competition. Does a competition where gimmes are standard practice count as one having an ‘acceptable format’? I don’t think so. It goes on to say that ‘Regular informal competitions (such as rollups) would now fall into this category‘. Is that WILL fall into this category, or MAY fall into this category...?

I struggle massively with the idea that we could be being told that we can no longer have regular friendly, fun and inconsequential (in respect of handicap) competitions amongst a group of mates. I just don’t believe that that can possibly be the case. But I guess that I can (just about) read the above in that way if I so choose to do. For me the thing that prevents that reading of the guideline of 2.1a(1) in that way are the words...’acceptable format’.

 

[Swango1980]

Many thanks for this. Pretty ambiguous IMO in the way that in 2.1a (1) it talks about regular informal competition. Does a competition where gimmes are standard practice count as one having an ‘acceptable format’? I don’t think so. It goes on to say that ‘Regular informal competitions (such as rollups) would now fall into this category‘. Is that WILL fall into this category, or MAY fall into this category...?

I struggle massively with the idea that we could be being told that we can no longer have regular friendly, fun and inconsequential (in respect of handicap) competitions amongst a group of mates. I just don’t believe that that can possibly be the case. But I guess that I can (just about) read the above in that way if I so choose to do. For me the thing that prevents that reading of the guideline of 2.1a(1) in that way are the words...’acceptable format’.

Playing gimmes is not an authorised format of play, or can be classed as an Acceptable round.

Your club is simply forcing you to submit these for handicap because it falls under heading of a regular organised comp. What they are missing is that it doesn't fall under the rules for handicapping by playing gimmes. If we forget gimmes for a second, let's say in this regular meeting you all play football match play, or dropping near where you go out of bounds, or everyone can have 3 mulligan, etc. Would club tell you these would have to count towards your handicap?

Even if you did play under all the correct rules, as I said before, I think it is a risky move for clubs to put this demand on players, although I also accept the WHS guidelines suggest clubs should do this even if players do not want it. Which is interesting, as one of the marketing points of WHS is it will encourage more people to play the game.

You did mention no qualifiers are typically played over winter at all. To he honest, I would definitely ask clubs to run qualifiers all year round if course conditions allow. Not necessarily turn your comp into one, but set up official club comps at least. However, this is already strongly recommended under CONGU

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Playing gimmes is not an authorised format of play, or can be classed as an Acceptable round.

Your club is simply forcing you to submit these for handicap because it falls under heading of a regular organised comp. What they are missing is that it doesn't fall under the rules for handicapping by playing gimmes. If we forget gimmes for a second, let's say in this regular meeting you all play football match play, or dropping near where you go out of bounds, or everyone can have 3 mulligan, etc. Would club tell you these would have to count towards your handicap?

Even if you did play under all the correct rules, as I said before, I think it is a risky move for clubs to put this demand on players, although I also accept the WHS guidelines suggest clubs should do this even if players do not want it. Which is interesting, as one of the marketing points of WHS is it will encourage more people to play the game.

You did mention no qualifiers are typically played over winter at all. To he honest, I would definitely ask clubs to run qualifiers all year round if course conditions allow. Not necessarily turn your comp into one, but set up official club comps at least. However, this is already strongly recommended under CONGU

Thanks for that guidance. My feeling is that as the club is telling us that we MUST hole out as it is a q-comp - and stop gimmes - then whatever fun form we play we’d be told to stop. They are saying it is a q-comp because WHS defines it to be one, and therefore we must adjust our playing format accordingly.

Seems to me is that the club has either got this the wrong way round - or that they are being overzealous in their reading of WHS guidelines around what constitutes a q-comp. That or interpreting our booking up to play in it as pre-registration and by pre-registering a for a ‘competitive‘ SRU that makes the SRU a q-comp.

The rule of unintended consequences do I hear? Significant discord introduced where previously none existed.

we do play a couple of comps over Christmas (h/cap singles k/o and 4BBB league but in the past they have been non-q. think they remain so this year. Our rollup would then be the only q-comp run through off-season.

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks for that guidance. My feeling is that as the club is telling us that we MUST hole out as it is a q-comp - and stop gimmes - then whatever fun form we play we’d be told to stop. They are saying it is a q-comp because WHS defines it to be one, and therefore we must adjust our playing format accordingly.

Seems to me is that the club has either got this the wrong way round - or that they are being overzealous in their reading of WHS guidelines around what constitutes a q-comp. That or interpreting our booking up to play in it as pre-registration and by pre-registering a for a ‘competitive‘ SRU that makes the SRU a q-comp.

The rule of unintended consequences do I hear? Significant discord introduced where previously none existed.

we do play a couple of comps over Christmas (h/cap singles k/o and 4BBB league but in the past they have been non-q. think they remain so this year. Our rollup would then be the only q-comp run through off-season.

It'll be interesting how well these comps are supported once they count to handicap and everyone must hole out. That could be proof at to whether club were right or wrong to force this upon player.

Everyone loves a texas scramble. Imagine a group of mates regularly met up to play a scramble for a few quid, a bit of a change to the regular comps they play in. Or, the regularly meet up to play match play. Again, bit more relaxing in that you are not trying to get a solid round of 18 hole scores. I'd be very frustrated if suddenly we were told we can no longer play that format. Someone once said the customer is always right. Not always true, but could make a good case for it here.

 

[DickInShorts]

As somebody said here - or in another thread - although there are currently differences around the world regarding formats and other areas within WHS they indicated that after a few years it would end up being one system for all the world with no divergences.

Surely this would mean that - like US now - ALL rounds would count for handicap - and gimmes would be allowed.

 

[rulefan]

And we could carry 15 clubs or a DMD with the elevation feature

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It'll be interesting how well these comps are supported once they count to handicap and everyone must hole out. That could be proof at to whether club were right or wrong to force this upon player.

Everyone loves a texas scramble. Imagine a group of mates regularly met up to play a scramble for a few quid, a bit of a change to the regular comps they play in. Or, the regularly meet up to play match play. Again, bit more relaxing in that you are not trying to get a solid round of 18 hole scores. I'd be very frustrated if suddenly we were told we can no longer play that format. Someone once said the customer is always right. Not always true, but could make a good case for it here.

We will push back.

I am just seeking guidance and advice from forummers close to the subject on whether there is anything about the WHS guidelines that we can point to that allows us to continue to play a friendly, fun comp organised between a group of members. (and nothing to do with the club) - a round of golf that doesn't matter other than for the banter, distracting, putting-off - the laugh - that means that it needn't count as a q-comp.

 

[woofers]

And what’s the problem with any organised competition score counting toward handicap?

It would seem to me that the more scores you have in the new system, the better reflection of your ability and accuracy of your handicap.
I‘m not sure it’s fully understood yet that there will be no more “0.1’s”, nor “harsh” reductions. The average of your best 8 from the last 20 should see more steady progressions either way.
The days of the guy regularly winning the roll up / Saturday swindle but getting no adjustment could be over. Bandits should be wary.
And the opposite applies as well, those who have low “vanity” handicaps could be found out, (it’s only their self esteem under threat).

I don’t think a club can force casual roll ups to be acceptable score competitions. You can’t be forced to pre-register a casual round. However if the club are setting aside tee times for organised roll ups, thereby facilitating such events, then perhaps these should be considered as acceptable scores? Otherwise book your own tee time and just go out and play.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And what’s the problem with any organised competition score counting toward handicap?

It would seem to me that the more scores you have in the new system, the better reflection of your ability and accuracy of your handicap.
I‘m not sure it’s fully understood yet that there will be no more “0.1’s”, nor “harsh” reductions. The average of your best 8 from the last 20 should see more steady progressions either way.
The days of the guy regularly winning the roll up / Saturday swindle but getting no adjustment could be over. Bandits should be wary.
And the opposite applies as well, those who have low “vanity” handicaps could be found out, (it’s only their self esteem under threat).

I don’t think a club can force casual roll ups to be acceptable score competitions. You can’t be forced to pre-register a casual round. However if the club are setting aside tee times for organised roll ups, thereby facilitating such events, then perhaps these should be considered as acceptable scores? Otherwise book your own tee time and just go out and play.

Simply that we don't want it to be as it would ruin the basic point of what it is.

See from above - it is a friendly, fun comp organised between a group of members. (and nothing to do with the club) - a round of golf that doesn't matter other than for the banter, distracting, putting-off - the laugh - that means that it needn't count as a q-comp. An inconsequential - rather nonsense - comp that anyone - especially new members or those unused to competitive golf - can join in with - get to know members - and have fun.

And I'll add re bandits winning the rollup. They don't do it that often - we run our own handicapping system that finds any player who comes in the frame cut by 0.1/£1 won off their current rollup h/cap. Aim is to prevent bandits winning regularly (they soon get cut beyond their ability) and as more players get the rollup h/cap cut - the opportunity for the others to win increases.

 

[doublebogey7]

Simply that we don't want it to be as it would ruin the basic point of what it is.

See from above - it is a friendly, fun comp organised between a group of members. (and nothing to do with the club) - a round of golf that doesn't matter other than for the banter, distracting, putting-off - the laugh - that means that it needn't count as a q-comp. An inconsequential - rather nonsense - comp that anyone - especially new members or those unused to competitive golf - can join in with - get to know members - and have fun.

And I'll add re bandits winning the rollup. They don't do it that often - we run our own handicapping system that finds any player who comes in the frame cut by 0.1/£1 won off their current rollup h/cap. Aim is to prevent bandits winning regularly (they soon get cut beyond their ability) and as more players get the rollup h/cap cut - the opportunity for the others to win increases.

I have to agree with woofer, and add you are being rather contradictory here. On the one hand you play purely for the banter etc and on the other money is involved and "swindle" handicaps cut to prevent banditory.

 

[woofers]

And I'll add re bandits winning the rollup. They don't do it that often - we run our own handicapping system that finds any player who comes in the frame cut by 0.1/£1 won off their current rollup h/cap. Aim is to prevent bandits winning regularly (they soon get cut beyond their ability) and as more players get the rollup h/cap cut - the opportunity for the others to win increases.

So you run your own separate handicapping system ? Will you still be doing 0.1 adjustments after 2nd November ? Will you be using handicap indices as a start point ?

You might be stopping “bandits” by using your system, but they are still “bandits” when it comes to other competitions.

However, if its a friendly, fun, comp organised between a group of members, not played by the rules of golf, and nothing to do with the club ..... I refer you to my last paragraph.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Simply that we don't want it to be as it would ruin the basic point of what it is.

See from above - it is a friendly, fun comp organised between a group of members. (and nothing to do with the club) - a round of golf that doesn't matter other than for the banter, distracting, putting-off - the laugh - that means that it needn't count as a q-comp. An inconsequential - rather nonsense - comp that anyone - especially new members or those unused to competitive golf - can join in with - get to know members - and have fun.

And I'll add re bandits winning the rollup. They don't do it that often - we run our own handicapping system that finds any player who comes in the frame cut by 0.1/£1 won off their current rollup h/cap. Aim is to prevent bandits winning regularly (they soon get cut beyond their ability) and as more players get the rollup h/cap cut - the opportunity for the others to win increases.

Interstingly we had roll-up handicaps prior to lockdown. Since we have been back we have been encouraging people to enter supplementary scores and guess what - their official handicaps now reflect their current ability. The roll-up handicaps have been abandoned

 

[rulefan]

Handicaps are really for all year use unless there is a 'Close Season' in your country.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I have to agree with woofer, and add you are being rather contradictory here. On the one hand you play purely for the banter etc and on the other money is involved and "swindle" handicaps cut to prevent banditory.

Yes there is money involved...a king's ransom - £1 each in the pot. If 40 play the winner might receive £20. He's then cut 2 shots to dissuade him for being so presumptuous in the future.

In fact the money doesn't really matter. Just adds a little something - and most often it's won by someone who's never really won much - or indeed anything - before - and often have never been near winning a club comp. And that is really nice. Those that tumble over the winning line 1st more regularly than rarely - will get a load of stick - and continued swingeing handicap cuts until they stop winning...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So you run your own separate handicapping system ? Will you still be doing 0.1 adjustments after 2nd November ? Will you be using handicap indices as a start point ?

You might be stopping “bandits” by using your system, but they are still “bandits” when it comes to other competitions.

However, if its a friendly, fun, comp organised between a group of members, not played by the rules of golf, and nothing to do with the club ..... I refer you to my last paragraph.

Yes; I believe so; Yes. We reset all Rollup handicaps to their club handicap when the clocks go back; and then again when the clocks go forward.

And yes - a 'bandit' exposed in our rollup will equally be a 'bandit' in club comps. But the club runs many qualifying comps and so 'bandits' are soon reined in by the club. The club has never needed our rollup to do that. Besides - the fact is that almost all of us who play in the SRU also play in almost all club competitions year round. Handicaps are generally appropriate. He who wins the rollup any Saturday has usually just had an unusually good day.

And should add. As well as playing individual s/ford we also play 4BBB in our groups of four. That's one reason we allow gimmes. Again that combination of formats plus gimmes would appear to disqualify our rollup comp from being a q-comp. Unless we are forced to abandon our format. And that will go down very badly.

 

[Crazyface]

a large sign is up at my place giving H/C's and how to convert WHS to what it should be to play our course, Problem is that it is assuming your place is rated less than ours....I think, as all the h/c's went up! There was no figures to show how to convert your H/C is your place was rated higher, so your H/C would be lower to play at ours.....I think...yes?

 

[jim8flog]

On the statement, within the rules of golf, our club through winter as most now seem to do play off fairway mats. But we also allow anyone who doesn’t like or feels they can’t play off the mat to pick and place at the nearest point of first cut. We had big debate as to wether this is within rules of golf as it’s a local ruling and maybe covered by abnormal conditions. Does any one know if we will be able to play qualifying comps and register them under WHS doing the two options ?

If you play off the mats it is acceptable for handicap purpose

GH/2 Local Rule Requiring Compulsory Use Of Fairway Mats
Acceptable Scores may be returned in Competitions and in General Play when there is a Local Rule requiring the compulsory use of fairway mats provided:

If you lift and place in the first cut it is not.

GH/5 Local Rule Requiring A Ball To Be Lifted From The Fairway And Dropped or Placed In The Semi-Rough
The introduction of a Local Rule permitting lifting the ball from the fairway and dropping or placing into the semi-rough (first cut), in order to protect the fairway, is not acceptable for handicap purposes. Such a procedure is not within the Rules of Golf. An alternative solution for fairway protection is required for an Acceptable Score such as the use of preferred lies or fairway mats.