World Handicap System

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Imo, concessions would still be permitted for the match, just by saying, "that's good for the match, but you need to putt it for the Stableford."

This is exactly my thinking. In the 4BBB match my opponents can give me a putt. I must however then hole it for the individual strokeplay competition.

One questions of clarification.

Does it matter (breach any rule) that I holed out after being conceded the putt. My 4BBB opponents will ignore if I miss it. But is there any possible rule breach in respect of the strokeplay element? I can't think of anything. I thought 'practice' - but it's not practice in the strokeplay context (unless I miss it and then replay it). In a matchplay context once a putt is given then the putt I than attempt (for the strokplay comp) is a 'dead' putt and in matchplay context is not practice.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

This is exactly my thinking. In the 4BBB match my opponents can give me a putt. I must however then hole it for the individual strokeplay competition.

One questions of clarification.

Does it matter (breach any rule) that I holed out after being conceded the putt. My 4BBB opponents will ignore if I miss it. But is there any possible rule breach in respect of the strokeplay element? I can't think of anything. I thought 'practice' - but it's not practice in the strokeplay context (unless I miss it and then replay it). In a matchplay context once a putt is given then the putt I than attempt (for the strokplay comp) is a 'dead' putt and in matchplay context is not practice.

Why bother with concessions when you are holing out anyway?
Just making it more complicated than it needs to be....

 

[Swango1980]

This is exactly my thinking. In the 4BBB match my opponents can give me a putt. I must however then hole it for the individual strokeplay competition.

One questions of clarification.

Does it matter (breach any rule) that I holed out after being conceded the putt. My 4BBB opponents will ignore if I miss it. But is there any possible rule breach in respect of the strokeplay element? I can't think of anything. I thought 'practice' - but it's not practice in the strokeplay context (unless I miss it and then replay it). In a matchplay context once a putt is given then the putt I than attempt (for the strokplay comp) is a 'dead' putt and in matchplay context is not practice.

Not practice, as it has been said before, stroke play rules win over match play rules.

However, as saving_par said, why even bother with gimmes if players need to putt out anyway???

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not practice, as it has been said before, stroke play rules win over match play rules.

However, as saving_par said, why even bother with gimmes if players need to putt out anyway???

Because it's a fun match - and we don't like seeing our mates miss tiddlers. So in the context of the matchplay I might not require an opponent to hole a putt. That he must still hole-out for the strokeplay comp and might miss - well I'd rather that didn't affect the result of the hole in our match.

 

[Swango1980]

Because it's a fun match - and we don't like seeing our mates miss tiddlers. So in the context of the matchplay I might not require an opponent to hole a putt. That he must still hole-out for the strokeplay comp and might miss - well I'd rather that didn't affect the result of the hole in our match.

If it is only a fun match, why bother if it changes the result of the hole or not? I can see the generosity of giving a putt when the player can then just pick it up, but they still need to make it for their handicap anyway. In fact, giving putts would actually concern me for the following reason:

You give a player a 2 foot putt. They are only interested in the match play result, the fact it is also for handicap was a condition set by the handicap committee at your club, and not necessarily endorsed by the players playing in the roll up. So, when you give that putt, the player could then "casually" tap the ball. Oops, missed that one. Oops, missed it again. Suddenly they may get a a higher score than they would have got, that could well keep their handicap higher than it should be. Given these are only "fun" roll ups, I very much doubt the markers are going to put in an official complaint to the Committee that this player is not fulfilling their duties.

Now, I am not saying this will happen. But, there is potential 1 or 2 might be less determined to knock in these gimme putts if they are really only interested in the match play element, and also have no desire to get the lowest handicap they can get. However, if you simply did not play gimmes, then it at least means there is a lot more incentive to physically hole putts.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Because it's a fun match - and we don't like seeing our mates miss tiddlers. So in the context of the matchplay I might not require an opponent to hole a putt. That he must still hole-out for the strokeplay comp and might miss - well I'd rather that didn't affect the result of the hole in our match.

Perhaps if your mates were more used to holing out 'tiddlers' in your 'fun' games they wouldn't miss them in the comp.

Doesn't do them any favours giving them missable putts.

 

[rulefan]

but it's not practice in the strokeplay context (unless I miss it and then replay it).

Would that not be a penalty for lifting and not marking your ball and then playing from a wrong place?

Having knocked the tiddler in and then trying the longer putt again, that is not practice of course. Between holes you may practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole you just completed

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Would that not be a penalty for lifting and not marking your ball and then playing from a wrong place?

Having knocked the tiddler in and then trying the longer putt again, that is not practice of course. Between holes you may practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole you just completed

My view (and it is just mine) is that if an opponent in the match putts and misses - but what is left is 'gimme' length - then I verbally concede the putt. But as he must still 'finish off' I would encourage all players to not go through their putt routine, marking, lifting, cleaning, replacing, lining up and other faffing about - but just to walk up and, playing ready golf, tap it in...

And thanks for the clarification/confirmation in respect of putting after hole is complete - that replaying a putt after holing out or picking up is allowed in both matchplay and strokeplay,

 

[4LEX]

All rounds since January 2018 will be used to calculate your Handicap Index as they appear in your handicap record. After your first 3 which gave you an initial handicap all hole scores worse than nett double bogey will have been adjusted as each round score has been added to your record and this process will continue with the WHS.

The table in post #151 will continue to apply incrementally until you have a full record of 20 scores.

I haven't submitted a score on my handicap since 2016 I think it was. I've just been playing matches off scratch.

Would my handicap be based on 3 new scores? Or my old inactive handicap? Or a mix?

 

[jim8flog]

I haven't submitted a score on my handicap since 2016 I think it was. I've just been playing matches off scratch.

Would my handicap be based on 3 new scores? Or my old inactive handicap? Or a mix?

Inactive is the wrong terminology.

If you are a member of a club and have a handicap it is either competition status or not at present.

As I understand it what was said was you will get you current handicap less 2 shots as your handicap index

However from what is being said it could well be that your handicap index will be your current handicap.

 

[badgergm]

We have to remember it is a different handicapping system intended for all year round play. (Except when there is an 'off season' imposed).

Presumably some are concerned that if they play a lot of poor condition winter golf their handicap will go up. But conversely, during great summer conditions their handicaps will come down.
Committed winter players will start the summer comps with a competitive handicap advantage over the 'stay indoors when it's wet' players.

But to the point re roll-ups, surely players are playing to the best of their ability and their handicaps should reflect that. If they are not playing to their ability why are they bothering to play in what would be considered to be a 'competitive' situation?

This concerns me for a number of reasons.

Firstly, currently I don't play to the best of my ability except in current qualifiers. And nor do I want to. I want to try out new/different clubs, try more shot shapes, etc. Its not that I'm not trying to hit good shots, its just that I'm not playing in the way that I would in a 'proper' qualifying competition, where I would play more percentage golf (nearly all our qualifiers are stroke not stableford).

Secondly, having all these rounds counting - and especially in the Winter - will just benefit those who aim to win competitions (by ramping their handicap) as opposed to playing their best golf all the time.

Aside from that - should CSS and WHS successor not take care of 'poor condition winter golf'? Answer I guess is not really, because IMO CSS is not responsive enough to scoes on the day.

 

[Swango1980]

This concerns me for a number of reasons.

Firstly, currently I don't play to the best of my ability except in current qualifiers. And nor do I want to. I want to try out new/different clubs, try more shot shapes, etc. Its not that I'm not trying to hit good shots, its just that I'm not playing in the way that I would in a 'proper' qualifying competition, where I would play more percentage golf (nearly all our qualifiers are stroke not stableford).

Secondly, having all these rounds counting - and especially in the Winter - will just benefit those who aim to win competitions (by ramping their handicap) as opposed to playing their best golf all the time.

Aside from that - should CSS and WHS successor not take care of 'poor condition winter golf'? Answer I guess is not really, because IMO CSS is not responsive enough to scoes on the day.

Qualifying competitions were strongly encouraged under the current handicap system, so WHS is not really different in that aspect.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

This concerns me for a number of reasons.

Firstly, currently I don't play to the best of my ability except in current qualifiers. And nor do I want to. I want to try out new/different clubs, try more shot shapes, etc. Its not that I'm not trying to hit good shots, its just that I'm not playing in the way that I would in a 'proper' qualifying competition, where I would play more percentage golf (nearly all our qualifiers are stroke not stableford).

Secondly, having all these rounds counting - and especially in the Winter - will just benefit those who aim to win competitions (by ramping their handicap) as opposed to playing their best golf all the time.

Aside from that - should CSS and WHS successor not take care of 'poor condition winter golf'? Answer I guess is not really, because IMO CSS is not responsive enough to scoes on the day.

Other than in competitions you don't HAVE to put cards in but many will choose to do so in the spirit of the new system. If you want to play trying out things and not putting in a card you can continue to do so - your call.

Ramping of handicaps are addressed by the imposition of Hard and Soft caps which supress the amount a HI can go up during the year. Your handicap committee also have powers of review. Surely the more cards that are submitted the more accurate a HI will be and if it climbs during the winter when conditions are tough then sobeit. I would postulate it's better to have a handicap that flexes over the season rather than one that goes down in the summer and stays there only going up by 0.1 when you play a qualifier.

The Playing Condition Adjustment replacing CSS is also an algorythm but will be based on all acceptable rounds played that day so should reflect the playing conditions more accurately - we will see.

 

[badgergm]

Other than in competitions you don't HAVE to put cards in but many will choose to do so in the spirit of the new system. If you want to play trying out things and not putting in a card you can continue to do so - your call.

Ramping of handicaps are addressed by the imposition of Hard and Soft caps which supress the amount a HI can go up during the year. Your handicap committee also have powers of review. Surely the more cards that are submitted the more accurate a HI will be and if it climbs during the winter when conditions are tough then sobeit. I would postulate it's better to have a handicap that flexes over the season rather than one that goes down in the summer and stays there only going up by 0.1 when you play a qualifier.

The Playing Condition Adjustment replacing CSS is also an algorythm but will be based on all acceptable rounds played that day so should reflect the playing conditions more accurately - we will see.

i guess im challenging the notion that the more cards submitted the more accurate the handicap is - if a good number of those cards are in informal scenarios. But the I’m coming from a position where I think that greater volatility in handicaps is a bad thing (upwards anyway).

on the topic of PCA, for some reason I’m under the impression that it will vary less than CSS. Any reason to think that? Is the algorithm published? Only thing I can find states that it’s ”designed to be conservative“. I think CSS also is, though I don’t know why.

 

[IanM]

Rather than thread-jack the question in "The Lounge" about "Cheapest Club Membership" I'll ask it here!!

If you want to put in an away card (in the post I assumed it was playing with mates rather than a formal comp) how do you pre-notify your club of your intention? And is this ok? There's no way of checking if it is legit or not.

If I wanted to really manipulate my handicap (in either direction) what's stopping me pulling in to a random course on my way home, getting a card from the pro shop and entering that as a score? (as long as I phone my club first) I don't even need to bother to play.

Am I missing something here or I suspect the crooks will have a field day!!

 

[Canfordhacker]

[QUOTE="

on the topic of PCA, for some reason I’m under the impression that it will vary less than CSS. Any reason to think that? Is the algorithm published? Only thing I can find states that it’s ”designed to be conservative“. I think CSS also is, though I don’t know why.[/QUOTE]

Rule 5.6 in the CONGU Rules of Handicapping doc is the most detail I have seen on this. But it talks to "calculate the expected score for each eligible player" which opens the can of worms about what that should be - in the past that argument was always "how often should somebody play to their handicap"

 

[Colin L]

Rather than thread-jack the question in "The Lounge" about "Cheapest Club Membership" I'll ask it here!!

If you want to put in an away card (in the post I assumed it was playing with mates rather than a formal comp) how do you pre-notify your club of your intention? And is this ok? There's no way of checking if it is legit or not.

If I wanted to really manipulate my handicap (in either direction) what's stopping me pulling in to a random course on my way home, getting a card from the pro shop and entering that as a score? (as long as I phone my club first) I don't even need to bother to play.

Am I missing something here or I suspect the crooks will have a field day!!

You'd need to have someone else to verify your "score". But there's nothing new here. You could, with a mate, fabricate scores for each other at the moment.

You might as well also drop into a supermarket and nick a few items for your tea.

 

[IanM]

You'd need to have someone else to verify your "score". But there's nothing new here. You could, with a mate, fabricate scores for each other at the moment.

You might as well also drop into a supermarket and nick a few items for your tea.

Exactly.... folk currently do both. That's my concern

"Unregulated rounds" seem to be getting more encouragement. Hence my question about how do notify the club you're putting a card in. AND will any lights flash when lots of away cards with a certain trend are posted?

It appears to me that someone could notify their intention to put in an away card, and M Mouse or W Churchill sign it form them, and in it goes with the same credence as a card in a drawn medal on your home course.

 

[Old Skier]

Rather than thread-jack the question in "The Lounge" about "Cheapest Club Membership" I'll ask it here!!

If you want to put in an away card (in the post I assumed it was playing with mates rather than a formal comp) how do you pre-notify your club of your intention? And is this ok? There's no way of checking if it is legit or not.

If I wanted to really manipulate my handicap (in either direction) what's stopping me pulling in to a random course on my way home, getting a card from the pro shop and entering that as a score? (as long as I phone my club first) I don't even need to bother to play.

Am I missing something here or I suspect the crooks will have a field day!!

You notify the club your playing at, not your club as they are responsible for entering the scores at their end.

Why would anyone want to manipulate their scores, some of you play with some odd people, if their that desperate surly they would manipulate the score wherever they play especially as many of players on here seem to play all forms of comps with just their mates anyway.

 

[IanM]

You notify the club your playing at, not your club as they are responsible for entering the scores at their end.

Why would anyone want to manipulate their scores, some of you play with some odd people, if their that desperate surly they would manipulate the score wherever they play especially as many of players on here seem to play all forms of comps with just their mates anyway.

Phew, thank goodness for the first bit!!

As for "Why would anyone want to manipulate their scores?" Well, there are several well known faces who do really well playing Opens during the Season. The better the prizes, the better the winning score! One bloke at my club wouldnt go near the course if conditions are off, he needs to keep below a certain HCap to be able to play in top Am events..