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World Handicap System (WHS)

So impressed by whs

Myself and my friend played a course

Signed each others score after

Straight onto my index!
 
IG are having a zoom call about the EG app being able to bypass the club

Have to agree I don’t think it’s right that scores can go straight onto someone’s handicap record without going via the clubs handicap sec.

Can envisage big issues ahead and I’m sure during the initial calls with EG and ISV the scores where going to be sent to the club to first verify them and then send to Dotgolf - by going straight there opens up the whole system to abuse
 
Liverpoolphil said:
IG are having a zoom call about the EG app being able to bypass the club

Have to agree I don’t think it’s right that scores can go straight onto someone’s handicap record without going via the clubs handicap sec.

Can envisage big issues ahead and I’m sure during the initial calls with EG and ISV the scores where going to be sent to the club to first verify them and then send to Dotgolf - by going straight there opens up the whole system to abuse
Click to expand...
This already happens in the Club V1 ISV

Players enter scores via howdidido, and it updated their Index the next day, without anybody ever having to check that score. I imagine the EG App just does the same thing.
 
Swango1980 said:
This already happens in the Club V1 ISV

Players enter scores via howdidido, and it updated their Index the next day, without anybody ever having to check that score. I imagine the EG App just does the same thing.
Click to expand...

Haven’t used HDID for years since we migrated to IG - it used to be just the front end display that Club Systems use to display results , enter comps etc

Has that changed ? Thought Clubsystems V1 had the app in the same way as IG and scores entered via that and then displayed to be “authorised” by the handicap/comp sec etc
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Haven’t used HDID for years since we migrated to IG - it used to be just the front end display that Club Systems use to display results , enter comps etc

Has that changed ? Thought Clubsystems V1 had the app in the same way as IG and scores entered via that and then displayed to be “authorised” by the handicap/comp sec etc
Click to expand...
HDID looks very similar to what it has looked like for years to the user, but they added a Today's Golf icon / menu, that allows players to sign in to comps or general play rounds, and submit scores after. The scores are sent straight to WHS, and handicap updated accordingly. There is no feature to hold them off, and wait to be authorised by anyone. A player could lie in his bed, never go near the club or submit a card, enter a score, and get his handicap updated. He'd probably get away with it as well. I'm not at club every day checking for cards, and with Covid I will not be surprised if many many cards do not get submitted. I cannot see me having the time to chase / harass members constantly if I cannot find a card. Many of the cards that are submitted are abysmal, with a lot of information missing.

Before WHS, a player could enter their score but it would not touch their handicap until authorised by Committee. That was fine, there was no urgency to have the score in the system before midnight on the day played.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
Did you do this via the EG app? I have not taken a huge amount of notice of all this simply because I have not played with a card in my hand since November but this post caught my interest.
Click to expand...
Yes I have. It's brilliant. Worked seemlessly and updated in seconds
 
Two of us used the England Golf App for our round yesterday to test it out. Below is the summary I sent to our group to help enlighten them. I am very impressed. EG Instagram account also saying there are GPS elements to the app such that you have to be close to the course for which you are registering a round.

  • we used the “enter score” option in the middle at the bottom, before we teed off 9note you may have to update the app as this is a recent addition)
  • create a scorecard- this asks you to select the club and tees (which means you can use it if you play away)
  • Get a message at this point that if you confirm you will be expected to submit scores.
  • app tells you your course handicap.
  • me and Andy also added each other so we were essentially marking each others cards.
  • We then left the app alone til after the round.
  • When we got back to the clubhouse, over a pint, we agreed the scores as we usually would
  • Smiley (our third playing partner) then created a round on the app just for him. He was told he couldn’t submit it for two hours (which is the pre-register intent element we have been discussing)
  • Andy and I both entered our gross scores (for both of us) pretty much like you would on the screen in the clubhouse.
  • Hit the submit button
  • App asks you to physically sign the card on screen with your finger.
  • App asks who is verifying the card. Given we had played together, it asked me if Andy was verifying my card. I said yes.
  • Andy then got a message on the app to ask him to verify my score.
  • Also received an email from the club Email address (ie not England golf) notifying that there is a score to be verified
  • Go to the app and verify the score
  • Andy holed out for an 8 on the 14th. We entered that score, and the final submission showed as 8 (7) to indicate a net double bogey had been calculated. It knocked a shot off his gross to reflect that too. Neat.
  • Score is currently sitting there waiting for the overnight run that will add the playing condition calculation and calculate the differential and hence new handicap index.
  • Smiley only entered his own score - it still asked him for a verifier. He picked me off his friend list and I followed the same process 2 hours later when the notification came through.
  • This morning HI updated accordingly, following PCC (which was 0 in this case)
 
Swango1980 said:
HDID looks very similar to what it has looked like for years to the user, but they added a Today's Golf icon / menu, that allows players to sign in to comps or general play rounds, and submit scores after. The scores are sent straight to WHS, and handicap updated accordingly. There is no feature to hold them off, and wait to be authorised by anyone. A player could lie in his bed, never go near the club or submit a card, enter a score, and get his handicap updated. He'd probably get away with it as well. I'm not at club every day checking for cards, and with Covid I will not be surprised if many many cards do not get submitted. I cannot see me having the time to chase / harass members constantly if I cannot find a card. Many of the cards that are submitted are abysmal, with a lot of information missing.

Before WHS, a player could enter their score but it would not touch their handicap until authorised by Committee. That was fine, there was no urgency to have the score in the system before midnight on the day played.
Click to expand...

Seems like a huge opening to cheats charter - who is verifying that the scores are genuine , it won’t take much for people to manufacture scores.

As you have I have also seen some of the scorecards and the amount of mistakes - where is the validation of the away scores or even scores at your own course. Why would people use the EG app instead of the IG app ? Maybe to bypass the home HC sec .
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Seems like a huge opening to cheats charter - who is verifying that the scores are genuine , it won’t take much for people to manufacture scores.

As you have I have also seen some of the scorecards and the amount of mistakes - where is the validation of the away scores or even scores at your own course. Why would people use the EG app instead of the IG app ? Maybe to bypass the home HC sec .
Click to expand...
If a player was that way inclined, yes the new system will be heaven for them. Some clubs may be able to keep on top of it, with full time staff or a pro who checks and verifies scores every day. Not our club, impossible to do that. Pre WHS, it was so much easier, as I could just schedule once or twice a week to go to club, check for scorecards, and only verify scores that were correct.

As I said on an earlier thread, one guy entered his score, which went directly to handicap. About a week or so later, I found his physical scorecard and noticed he had entered his markers score, not his own. His own score was 15 shots lower than what he entered.

But, I think this was always my biggest fear as a handicap secretary, player's being able to submit scores at will. I originally thought the administration of it, filing scorecards and so on, would be impossible. However, I will admit, I have given up on that. No longer do I file scorecards, especially due to the complications of Covid. I have about 100/200 scorecards lying around my house as I've taken them home to process, and probably even more e-mails with pictures of scorecards sent. We've had nearly 200 new members join in the last year, so I absolutely do not have the time to file all these cards when it is safe to do so, nor do I have time to work out if there are any missing cards. I certainly do not have the resources at home to run the full admin of it all, I basically have access a computer and the internet, so I can at least enter scores for players and e-mail them their handicaps.

It seems as if, to do a sound job as a handicap secretary now, it is pretty much a full time job, and you need to be at the club with a decent office set up, so that you have room for filing, computer and printing access. Ideally you check scores before midnight, every single night. And, you have time to phone / contact members when there are issues. I've not even had to deal with members submitting scores from Away courses, but I suppose that will start happening soon now that the MyEG App has been updated.

Carnage. I think it will end up just being a case that you purely trust every single score that is submitted, and only investigate of other members complain about a particular player.
 
First card in yesterday. I am registered and showing on the members list of the ClubV1 app, and I have also a registered HowDidIDo account (ClubV1 and HDID passport), however when I log onto HDID it asks me to search for my club and when I find it, it says I'm not in the clubs list. Do I need to have submitted my 3 cards before I'll be on their list? Or is it simply a case of the club haven't got round to adding me yet?

And once I've submitted my 3 cards, what happens? Do I get an e-mail or something stating my handicap? How long does this usually take or is it dependent on the club itself?

Sorry for the probably stupid questions, as someone completely new to handicapping I'm sure i'll have alot more over time.
 
Swango1980 said:
HDID looks very similar to what it has looked like for years to the user, but they added a Today's Golf icon / menu, that allows players to sign in to comps or general play rounds, and submit scores after. The scores are sent straight to WHS, and handicap updated accordingly. There is no feature to hold them off, and wait to be authorised by anyone. A player could lie in his bed, never go near the club or submit a card, enter a score, and get his handicap updated. He'd probably get away with it as well. I'm not at club every day checking for cards, and with Covid I will not be surprised if many many cards do not get submitted. I cannot see me having the time to chase / harass members constantly if I cannot find a card. Many of the cards that are submitted are abysmal, with a lot of information missing.

Before WHS, a player could enter their score but it would not touch their handicap until authorised by Committee. That was fine, there was no urgency to have the score in the system before midnight on the day played.
Click to expand...
There should be some traceability within the HDID app though as you have to put in the name of the person who marked your card and you also still sign for it. Whether they are actually holding that data I don't know as I haven't found anywhere on the front end to display the marker for each of my scores.

I played in my first qualifying round yesterday, put the score in at around 8pm in the HDID app, could see the score in the England golf app and index was updated when I woke up this morning. Seemed like a seamless process really.
 
Springveldt said:
There should be some traceability within the HDID app though as you have to put in the name of the person who marked your card and you also still sign for it. Whether they are actually holding that data I don't know as I haven't found anywhere on the front end to display the marker for each of my scores.
Click to expand...
Entering the name of your marker in HDID is optional.
 
2blue said:
Can anyone explain why an option for a none-Q is given? Why would anyone bother registering for a None-Q?
Click to expand...

Not sure anybody would want.

I presume that is set by the club and would be a good way to warn players that do not understand that to submit scores for handicap they have to meet qualifying conditions.
 
Swango1980 said:
If a player was that way inclined, yes the new system will be heaven for them. Some clubs may be able to keep on top of it, with full time staff or a pro who checks and verifies scores every day. Not our club, impossible to do that. Pre WHS, it was so much easier, as I could just schedule once or twice a week to go to club, check for scorecards, and only verify scores that were correct.

As I said on an earlier thread, one guy entered his score, which went directly to handicap. About a week or so later, I found his physical scorecard and noticed he had entered his markers score, not his own. His own score was 15 shots lower than what he entered.

But, I think this was always my biggest fear as a handicap secretary, player's being able to submit scores at will. I originally thought the administration of it, filing scorecards and so on, would be impossible. However, I will admit, I have given up on that. No longer do I file scorecards, especially due to the complications of Covid. I have about 100/200 scorecards lying around my house as I've taken them home to process, and probably even more e-mails with pictures of scorecards sent. We've had nearly 200 new members join in the last year, so I absolutely do not have the time to file all these cards when it is safe to do so, nor do I have time to work out if there are any missing cards. I certainly do not have the resources at home to run the full admin of it all, I basically have access a computer and the internet, so I can at least enter scores for players and e-mail them their handicaps.

It seems as if, to do a sound job as a handicap secretary now, it is pretty much a full time job, and you need to be at the club with a decent office set up, so that you have room for filing, computer and printing access. Ideally you check scores before midnight, every single night. And, you have time to phone / contact members when there are issues. I've not even had to deal with members submitting scores from Away courses, but I suppose that will start happening soon now that the MyEG App has been updated.

Carnage. I think it will end up just being a case that you purely trust every single score that is submitted, and only investigate of other members complain about a particular player.
Click to expand...
Personally, I think the score entry function of the MyEG App is great and, along with IG's app, further highlights how lax CS have been in updating HDID to provide some level of score verification. As I said above, it doesn't even require entry of markers name.

Having said that, much like the Rules of Golf, the way that the Rules of Handicapping have been designed and implemented puts a huge amount of trust in the integrity of individual players. At present, there are simply no tools available within the EG WHS Platform for handicap committees to monitor scores and handicaps properly, and assist in identifying those who are entering scores wrongly or worse, manipulating the system. The reports that are available (e.g. daily score listings) simply don't have sufficient detail to easily highlight any anomalies (high/low scores, missing holes, etc.).

Until the systems have adequate functionality, handicap committees will remain hamstrung and are able to do little more than wait for review requests or reports of possible mistakes - and even then is requires more legwork than it should do due to said missing features.
 
I think all the extra work that is needed for this will put a lot of people off the HC “job”
Mostly done by volunteers this might have to become a full time job for somebody.
 
GGTTH said:
First card in yesterday. I am registered and showing on the members list of the ClubV1 app, and I have also a registered HowDidIDo account (ClubV1 and HDID passport), however when I log onto HDID it asks me to search for my club and when I find it, it says I'm not in the clubs list. Do I need to have submitted my 3 cards before I'll be on their list? Or is it simply a case of the club haven't got round to adding me yet?

And once I've submitted my 3 cards, what happens? Do I get an e-mail or something stating my handicap? How long does this usually take or is it dependent on the club itself?

Sorry for the probably stupid questions, as someone completely new to handicapping I'm sure i'll have alot more over time.
Click to expand...

I am presuming you have to submit 3 cards to your club for them to get you a CDH number. Scotland golf issue you with a first handicap not the club as I understand it.

One thing you can do is to submit all three cards at the same which makes the H/Cap sec job easier.
 
I've just received an email from my club advising that scores entered via the EG app will not be accepted ?. A local meeting of county bods highlighted a range of problems and it has scared them off for the time being.

A shame as the system so well laid out by @Canfordhacker looks so good. Hopefully it will just be temporary and they will look again as the season progresses.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
I've just received an email from my club advising that scores entered via the EG app will not be accepted ?. A local meeting of county bods highlighted a range of problems and it has scared them off for the time being.

A shame as the system so well laid out by @Canfordhacker looks so good. Hopefully it will just be temporary and they will look again as the season progresses.
Click to expand...
Is this a county wide ban on scoring via the EG App or just your club?
 
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