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Deleted member 3432
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I think over the pond they more or less do as they please. POTUS handicap is a prime example
World Handicap System (WHS)
- Thread starter JohnnyDee
- Start date
I think over the pond they more or less do as they please. POTUS handicap is a prime example
rosecott
Money List Winner
You could say that it's not the US that is out of step. Under the rules of golf, a club is perfectly entitled to use this alternative to stroke and distance. It is CONGU who decided not to allow rounds played using that rule as "counting for handicap".
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Not saying that US is out of step - but we are not aligned.
apj0524
Head Pro
Genuinely I am interested to know what is the argument that preferred lies protect the course, as in my head I can fat a shot and take a big divot anywhere and I a not see how preferred lies protects the course, small mats, teeing the ball up and have to play from the rough I can see would protect the course? I am asking because this debate rages every year at out club
Swango1980
Well-known member
I don't think it is just about protecting the course, but to help provide a "fairer" and more enjoyable game to golfers over the winter.
In terms of protecting the course, it ensures there is less chance golfers feel like they have to dig down on their shots to hit it out of a bad lie. I appreciate golfers can do this on a perfect lie, but it reduces the odds.
In terms of making the game more enjoyable and fairer, it stops golfers having to hit the ball out of patches that are essentially mud (which you get at my course). Also, the big thing is it allows the golfer to clean their ball of mud. As such, even professional tournaments adopt preferred lies when weather has been bad, and the reason they do this is not primarily to protect the course. In fact, protecting the course would have little or nothing to do with adopting preferred lies in this case.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
If I play off the blues, at 6600 yards, my 10.1 index gives me 12 shots.
If I play off the yellows, bizarrely still called the ladies tees, at 5676 yards, my index gives me 11 shots.
Given some holes are more than 100 yards shorter, I quite fancy my chances.
I thought there would be a bigger differential.
My club are also going to stipulate which tees are in use for the comps, and it will be blue only.
If I play off the yellows, bizarrely still called the ladies tees, at 5676 yards, my index gives me 11 shots.
Given some holes are more than 100 yards shorter, I quite fancy my chances.
I thought there would be a bigger differential.
My club are also going to stipulate which tees are in use for the comps, and it will be blue only.
Swango1980
Well-known member
WHS does not take into account the difference between Par and Course Rating. Your yellow tees might be several shots easier than blue tees (compare their Course Rating). When playing to handicap, you are playing against Course Rating, not Par. So, for example, on your blue course you may need 36 points to play to handicap, but on yellow course you may need 39 points to play to handicap (the numbers are just an example, as I do not know the course ratings at your courses, or par)
Vikingman
Head Pro
We had a member, who had a CONGU handicap of 27.1. He only had one score pre October 2020 (before the WHS 1st became available before launch), so his Index was set to 27.1. He had submitted 3 additional scores in October, and 1 extra score on 4th November just after launch. Based on his 5 scores, his Index went up to 33.1. This gave him ELEVEN additional shots off the yellow tees, with his Course Handicap being 38.1.
He won yesterdays Seniors competition with 48 points. You've got to love WHS
He would gain in the region of three shots by setting his index at his old handicap.
Trying to work this logically if his initial pre round handicap index is 27.1 and he doesn't better this wouldn't his handicap after 5 rounds still be 27.1?
Also when does the hard cap come into play?
I'm not trying to pick fault, I'm genuinely interested in the maths behind this.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Over the pond they have mulligans we do not.
We had a long term American visitor playing with us a lot of last year. In the end we just ignored the fact that he kept playing the same way as he did in the States.
Local Rules have always been optional and I know of one or two that we have that other clubs probably do not- exposed tree roots and obstructions close to the green.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
This is why it is so confusing. If two people are both playing in a comp, off different tees (is this allowed?), and both shoot 40 pts, one is 4 under, and one maybe 1 under, for handicapping, but for the comp, both would have the same score.
I am just totally confused by the whole thing.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Odd one that most greenkeepers I have known would prefer us not to have preferred lies. A players ball finishes in a divot hole the player lifts it out and prefers the lie the result is 2 divots holes and not one.
I am the sort of player that nearly always takes a divot so moving the ball to a new location just means a divot hole in the new location rather then the original one (assuming I cannot find the divot to put it back)
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
It would be pretty rare except for a mixed comps and the player with the lowest course rating off their tee would get course adjustment shots anyway.
Swango1980
Well-known member
As jim8flog said, in this case there is an adjustment to account for the differences in course rating. I agree with the confusion, I've come across many many golfers now that just don't understand why they don't get a lot more shots at harder courses. The biggest example and impact, as you mentioned, are the difference in handicaps at the same course, but different tee boxes. Our white tees are a lot more difficult than yellows, but most golfers play off the same handicap on both, perhaps one extra shot off whites depending on rounding (Slopes are 130 and 133, so similar). You could have a situation where the white course was harder, but had a lower slope. In that case, some would have a lower handicap off whites than yellows. That really would cause some panic amongst club golfers, would be interesting if any courses experience this.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
My earlier point about the US club's OoB alternative to putting a provisional/new ball into play is that it was in the club's local rules - it wasn't simply what the members chose to do.
Though I appreciate it's most probably not going to make any real difference to comparative HIs, I just thought countries playing under WHS would be aligned in respect of the rules golfers played to.
Swango1980
Well-known member
When WHS was first seen by clubs in October, he only had the one score in his history. Not enough scores to calculate a WHS handicap, so his Index was simply set to 27.1 to match CONGU. Slope off yellows is 130, so that would give him a course handicap of 31 (+4 shots against CONGU)
He submitted 3 more scores in October. These were not transferred to WHS until it launched in November. So, once they were taken into account, his Index shot up to 32.1 (his October scores were not great, Adj Gros = 113, 107 and 112, Course Rating = 66.8)
On 4th November, with WHS in play, he shot an adjusted gross of 124 off whites (CR=69.4) and his Index went to 34.1. So, this gave him a course handicap of 39. So, my initial post was actually incorrect, he actually got 12 extra shots, not 11 by the time he played this weekends competition.
He shot an adjusted gross of 97 this weekend, which gave him 48 points and his Index has dropped from 34.1 to 28.2 (course handicap from 39 to 32)
I guess, had he been a completely new member, you expect a big score at some point. However, in this transition period, there will be many people who have had a CONGU handicap, but not submitted many qualifying scores over the last 3 years. So, the WHS handicap they play off could be very different to what their CONGU handicap was. I expect for the first 6 months or so, there may be some funky scores in competitions, perhaps more than you'd usually see.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Are they still ironing out problems with handicaps?
I haven't put a card in since WHS began.
I got an email this morning informing me that my index has gone up to 6.7 from 6.2.
As far as I can tell the only thing that was different in the numbers between WHS and CONGU was the ESR that didn't get used in the transition.
How can my index change without putting in a card..?
I haven't put a card in since WHS began.
I got an email this morning informing me that my index has gone up to 6.7 from 6.2.
As far as I can tell the only thing that was different in the numbers between WHS and CONGU was the ESR that didn't get used in the transition.
How can my index change without putting in a card..?
rulefan
Tour Winner
Do you mean that your CONGU exact was 6.2 and now your WHS is 6.7? Or that at transition your WHS was set at 6.2 bur subsequently it has gone up to 6.7?
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Yesterday I was 6.2 WHS
Today, as of 4.51am, I'm 6.7 WHS
No cards in since late October...
rulefan
Tour Winner
Has your club made the adjustment for the ESR you mentioned?
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
I don't know.
The ESR took me from 7.1 to 6.1 CONGU in late October.
Can't remember what the initial transition index was but it came down to 6.2
No cards in under WHS and today it's up to 6.7...
That's all I know...
