World Cup

[Crazyface]

Cash in grass roots. There's the first stumbling block with the FA set up as it is

THIS!!!! To start down the coaching route you have to pay at every stage. I spoke to a bloke who had coaching level 2 about 6 months ago. He said their was no way the average bloke interested in getting the coaching badges would be able to afford it. The cost ran into the thousands. The FA only want ex-players, who have been trained and coached a certain way, and will pass this cr@p on to future generation. The FA do not want possible innovators messing about in their football.

 

[Crazyface]

Gonna be plenty of fans in the lower leagues next year when their side goes 5-0 down singing "Its just like watching Brazil"

Best post. Very funny !!!!!!!!!

 

[Crazyface]

Looking forward to game,these only come round every 4 years.Hope Germany do it..Playing with me mate Joachim tomorrow morning in Lancs Classis, so need him in good spirits..

I think this is a given now. He'll be pickled.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I wouldn't be judging the potential and ability of those players based on the World Cup.

I would. You were harping on about the likes of Sterling and Sturridge being the main two strikers throughout England's dismal run and the nucleus of the side is going to be in place for at least the EC campaign. On present form they are lacking.

On a separate issue, this so called masterplan is all well and good but as I've pointed out (and you chose to ignore) the FA won't change from their current policy so its a flawed argument. Not only have we the white elephant that's the St Georges Park national centre, but the FA invested millions in Greg Dyke's report. He came back with a blueprint for the future. We are very good at all levels from U16-U19 and then the crop of English players go to their clubs and can't get a game and so go out on loan to lower league clubs or sit and rot in reserves. Dyke came up with an idea to give more players match exposure with the feeder league but that was rubbished across the board. If every time someone thinks outside the box like this and it proves too experimental, expensive or affects the current status quo the PL and FA will rebuke it. On that subject while there are two entities controlling different interests there will never be any unified policy.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Best post. Very funny !!!!!!!!!

Oh I can already hear 'are you Brazeeel in disguise - are you Braaazeeel in disguise'

 

[Deleted member 18588]

. Not only have we the white elephant that's the St Georges Park national centre,

A new low for this debate, describing the one thing that the FA have done in recent years that benefits the game as a "white elephant".

St George's is, above all, being used to train coaches the shortage of which is the biggest weakness in the English game.

If you had described Wemberlee as a waste of resources I would have agreed with you.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I would. You were harping on about the likes of Sterling and Sturridge being the main two strikers throughout England's dismal run and the nucleus of the side is going to be in place for at least the EC campaign. On present form they are lacking.

On a separate issue, this so called masterplan is all well and good but as I've pointed out (and you chose to ignore) the FA won't change from their current policy so its a flawed argument. Not only have we the white elephant that's the St Georges Park national centre, but the FA invested millions in Greg Dyke's report. He came back with a blueprint for the future. We are very good at all levels from U16-U19 and then the crop of English players go to their clubs and can't get a game and so go out on loan to lower league clubs or sit and rot in reserves. Dyke came up with an idea to give more players match exposure with the feeder league but that was rubbished across the board. If every time someone thinks outside the box like this and it proves too experimental, expensive or affects the current status quo the PL and FA will rebuke it. On that subject while there are two entities controlling different interests there will never be any unified policy.

Judging players based on a total of three games is lazy and thankfully not what scouts do - Sterling isn't even 20 yet and you say he is "lacking" - what exactly is he "lacking " Homer that you can see - with the tactics set out by Owl Face - Rodrieguez would have struggled

Why exactly is Germany's model "flawed" ?! Because the FA won't adopt it - I know they won't because they allow some suit and Danny Mills to decide the future of the game when the simplest method is to copy the successful methods being employed by the successful teams.

And why is St George's a white elephant?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

A new low for this debate, describing the one thing that the FA have done in recent years that benefits the game as a "white elephant".

St George's is, above all, being used to train coaches the shortage of which is the biggest weakness in the English game.

If you had described Wemberlee as a waste of resources I would have agreed with you.

White elephant may be a tad strong and I agree that coaches are badly needed. However does such a huge complex really justify the enormous costs and resources? If you take St Georges out of the equation though, the fact remains that while we have kids able to compete at European level successfully right up to U18 the process is then flawed and they fail to make the breakthrough unless a rare talent (Walcott, Sterling, Barkely etc). Whereas the other nations in LP's blueprint seem to then be able to filter the nucleus of their juniors sides via the U21 and into the full team, the vast majority of ours seem destined to be farmed out by parent clubs for lower league experience and rarely seem to come back and then find a place in the first team anyway

The FA won't chenge this anytime soon. The Dyke report clearly pointed out the short fall in English players in the PL (around 32%) and when the report was published with ideas to resolve this it was panned by the PL, the press, fans and ignored by the FA

 

[BoadieBroadus]

one problem has to be the lack of exposure English players are getting to other approaches to the game. look at the squads of the good teams at the world cup and they have players playing in ENgland, Spain, Italy, Portugal Germany etc gaining a variety of experiences and different approaches.

the only player in the England squad playing outside of England, I think, is reserve keeper Forster playing for the mighty 'Tic.

part of that is the money that the premier league (and championship) dishes out to players to sit around and not necessarily get a game, but it is a contributing factor to the stagnant, insular, regression that the England team (and the other home nations) are suffering from.

 

[c1973]

I would. You were harping on about the likes of Sterling and Sturridge being the main two strikers throughout England's dismal run and the nucleus of the side is going to be in place for at least the EC campaign. On present form they are lacking.

On a separate issue, this so called masterplan is all well and good but as I've pointed out (and you chose to ignore) the FA won't change from their current policy so its a flawed argument. Not only have we the white elephant that's the St Georges Park national centre, but the FA invested millions in Greg Dyke's report. He came back with a blueprint for the future. We are very good at all levels from U16-U19 and then the crop of English players go to their clubs and can't get a game and so go out on loan to lower league clubs or sit and rot in reserves. Dyke came up with an idea to give more players match exposure with the feeder league but that was rubbished across the board. If every time someone thinks outside the box like this and it proves too experimental, expensive or affects the current status quo the PL and FA will rebuke it. On that subject while there are two entities controlling different interests there will never be any unified policy.

100% correct.

I wouldn't agree it's a flawed argument just because those in power will not adopt it. Several countries have proven its anything but flawed.

Football in this island has become way too dependent on big bucks and foreign 'talent', obviously more so in England. As I said earlier I agree that those in charge of the game will not adopt any radical long term policy, more interested in short term gains (to the detriment of the game) and protecting the status quo (junkets and jobs for the boys). The only way change will be considered is if fans start voting with their feet or tv cash dries up.

Average season ticket price in Bundesliga - £207
Average season ticket price in EPL - £467
Tv cash generated EPL - £2.4 billion*
Tv cash generated Bundesliga - apx £1 billion less*

* http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ier-League-ahead-Bundesliga-money-charts.html

That's a big difference, yet in Germany they are producing more home grown talent with their resources. They realised they needed to restructure the game root and branch and did so, benefiting German players which in turn benefits the clubs and also made the game more accessible to supporters too. Without delving into the details of how they went about setting up academy's etc I really don't see this as a flawed argument. The proof is there for all to see that the German method of investing in German talent is working and the EPL method of lining foreign (often mediocre) players pockets is not working.

I think there is a difference in mentality as well. Our teams (i include Scotland here) seem to be full of players who view the trappings of success as the achievement and winning as a welcome bonus, Germans seem to view winning as the achievement and the trappings of success as a welcome bonus.

I may be wrong and accept the difference in opinions though.

 

[williamalex1]

My mate still coaches under thirteens, but he says paperwork , health safety regulations and guidelines are a pain in the a**e . Now theres young whippersnappers with qualifications as long as your arm, but no real pro football experience telling a ex player/ coach how things are to be done.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

My friend is out in Brazil and he has said the atmosphere has took a massive u turn - got very unfriendly and nasty last night

From everyone being made to feel welcome to now it's getting scarey - already some trouble in the bars and people being arrested and in hospital.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The FA won't chenge this anytime soon. The Dyke report clearly pointed out the short fall in English players in the PL (around 32%) and when the report was published with ideas to resolve this it was panned by the PL, the press, fans and ignored by the FA

Maintaining the metaphors the number of English players in the PL is a "red herring".

More pertinent is the number of good English players who could be playing anywhere.

How many of the French, Dutch, German, Portuguese, Argentinian squads play in their home leagues or the growing number of African players. Compare it with how little demand there has ever been for English players from successful foreign clubs. Very few isolated signings.

Why is that? In my opinion it is simply that English players are, and have not been for years, good enough.

Forget the odd success at U16 - U19 level, that can largely be attributed to the diifference in football culture at that age where other countries are focussing on skill development whilst our young players are being encouraged to win leagues etc;

If young English players were good enough most PL clubs would have no hesitation in using them.

Protectionism does not work in business and it will not work in sport. Improve the product, in this case the players.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Maintaining the metaphors the number of English players in the PL is a "red herring".

More pertinent is the number of good English players who could be playing anywhere.

How many of the French, Dutch, German, Portuguese, Argentinian squads play in their home leagues or the growing number of African players. Compare it with how little demand there has ever been for English players from successful foreign clubs. Very few isolated signings.

Why is that? In my opinion it is simply that English players are, and have not been for years, good enough.

Forget the odd success at U16 - U19 level, that can largely be attributed to the diifference in football culture at that age where other countries are focussing on skill development whilst our young players are being encouraged to win leagues etc;

If young English players were good enough most PL clubs would have no hesitation in using them.

Protectionism does not work in business and it will not work in sport. Improve the product, in this case the players.

That could also have to do with the fact that the price tag on decent young English players is usually ridiculously high. Take Luke Shaw for example who went for around £30M yet Liverpool are looking to sign the Belgian forward Origi for around £10M.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That could also have to do with the fact that the price tag on decent young English players is usually ridiculously high. Take Luke Shaw for example who went for around £30M yet Liverpool are looking to sign the Belgian forward Origi for around £10M.

Supply and demand.

If there were more decent young English players their selling clubs would be unable to charge a premium.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Flawed in the simple fact that while it clearly has been proven to work with Germany, France and Spain, it will never be adopted for the English side. Nothing flawed with the process at all, merely the powers that be that allegedly have the good of the game at heart.

IF, and it's a huge one at that, we get one unified power without the self indulgence of the FA and financial interest of PL plc then I can see how it could work. Until then, the new crop of players will be built up as the next golden age in the media, under perform and the circle will continue.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Supply and demand.

If there were more decent young English players their selling clubs would be unable to charge a premium.

Could be. Maybe it's a result of the homegrown players rule?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What Germany have done is build a team

It started in 2006

Klinsmann came in a decided he wanted the national teams to all play the same way

It took until 2009 when that u21 team started to flourish and they just built from that

They aren't blessed with superstars but they have built a team

England need to start building the teams from early ages - same tactics and formations right through the ages

Germany don't have a Messi or a Ribery or a Suarez or Ronaldo or a Neymar yet as a team they clearly look head and shoulders above everyone

Even Spain didn't have a true global superstar before hand - they had a team.

The FA asked an ex BBC director to look at the make up of the national team ?! Germany asked one or their greatest strikers.

I know which one I would prefer to look at.

England could even go the whole way and employ Klinsmann - he appears to know exactly what he is doing

 

[HomerJSimpson]

What Germany have done is build a team

It started in 2006

Klinsmann came in a decided he wanted the national teams to all play the same way

It took until 2009 when that u21 team started to flourish and they just built from that

They aren't blessed with superstars but they have built a team

England need to start building the teams from early ages - same tactics and formations right through the ages

Germany don't have a Messi or a Ribery or a Suarez or Ronaldo or a Neymar yet as a team they clearly look head and shoulders above everyone

Even Spain didn't have a true global superstar before hand - they had a team.

The FA asked an ex BBC director to look at the make up of the national team ?! Germany asked one or their greatest strikers.

I know which one I would prefer to look at.

England could even go the whole way and employ Klinsmann - he appears to know exactly what he is doing

You keep saying this!!!!!!!!! I agree that the plan they have works. What you are missing is that the FA, ultimately in charge of the England team, won't do this. Add in the involvement and self interest of the PL and this is never going to be adopted. Dyke for all his faults came up with a report and his findings were dismissed out of hand despite him showing what any footballer employed to do the role would have done, there isn't enough emerging English talent coming through once they peak at U18.

It doesn't matter who the FA employ to write the report, the findings are already there. The problem is while the FA and PL effectively control the games as two separate powers there won't be sufficient cooperation to make this work. You can bang on as many time as you like about this blueprint to success but it ain't happening here anytime soon

 

[Crazyface]

What Germany have done is build a team

It started in 2006

Klinsmann came in a decided he wanted the national teams to all play the same way

It took until 2009 when that u21 team started to flourish and they just built from that

They aren't blessed with superstars but they have built a team

England need to start building the teams from early ages - same tactics and formations right through the ages

Germany don't have a Messi or a Ribery or a Suarez or Ronaldo or a Neymar yet as a team they clearly look head and shoulders above everyone

Even Spain didn't have a true global superstar before hand - they had a team.

The FA asked an ex BBC director to look at the make up of the national team ?! Germany asked one or their greatest strikers.

I know which one I would prefer to look at.

England could even go the whole way and employ Klinsmann - he appears to know exactly what he is doing

Agreed !!!!!!!!!