World Cup Qualifiers

[sawtooth]

Did watch the whole game, wasn't an exciting game and frustrating, did look like more of the fare served up at the recent Euros, unsurprisingly. Not sure Sam can do much more really. Team seems a bit stifled, confidence issue maybe post Iceland game.

Saying that England will walk this group especially winning last night so there is time to improve and improve confidence, never rated Walcott personally, his only asset being speed, Sturridge ain't for me either. Also seems like you're missing a proper midfield boss who can pull the strings, these Tottenham boys are good but aren't in the same league as Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard were and Rooney in midfield is dubious imo, not convinced.

However you won on paper the toughest away game you'll get in this group, maybe a tad luckily as they played well beyond the extra time indicated but what did Slovakia offer? - Hart could have had a sleep, had nothing to do. A draw would have been an acceptable result imo but you did better than that so maybe just take it and move on and be happy.

It's early days so I'm not one to give Sam a kicking after just a week with the players. I will sit back and wait to how this team develops but I think that he may live to regret making Rooney captain because now he will be obliged to play him. He did OK last night but he is not a midfielder at this level. Scary that Allardyce said that he was brilliant , I just hope that was some kind of motivation technique.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

And can be interpreted differently.

For many years the Euros, rightly or wrongly, were not taken that seriously and everything was geared towards the World Cup. Googlephil's stats do not seem to support a claim that England's performance in the latter has been any better post '92 than before. (also overlooks our performance in '72 effectively being a quarter-final)

The Euros have, in recent times, been diluted by the inclusion of more teams and third place in a group sometimes being sufficient to qualify.

My point is that the PL, whilst being a marketing and,thus, a financial success, has hindered rather than helped the national team.

England managers have come and gone (some good, some bad) but all have had the same problem of a decreasing pool of talent.

As a "spectating" nation we are at the top end but as "competitors" we are no more than mid-table, which is OK provided the public's expectations reflect this. After all a supporter of a mid-table Club will hope that his Club can break into the top six but is he being realistic if he expects, rather than hopes.

I don't think the PL has hindered the National team, Children are attached to clubs at a much younger age, facilities at clubs are at a completely different level, financial incentives are at an all time high, our youth players are exposed to some of the worlds best players and coach's, all that talent is still there, we just need to bring it together, whether it's our expectations or the media, the facts are, is that we are still producing players of the highest level, but they are failing to produce when it really matters.

 

[Liverbirdie]

WC

Pre Prem

1970 - Quarters
74 and 78 - DNQ
82 -2nd Rd
86 - Quarters
90 - Semi

Post Prem

94 - DNQ
98 - L16
02 - Quarters
04 - Quarters
08 - L16
12 - Group Stage

Euro's

Pre Prem

72 and 76 - DNQ
80 - Group
84 - DNQ
88 - Group

Post Prem

92 - Group
96 - Semi
00 - Group
04 - Quarters
08 - DNQ
12 - Quarters
16 -L16

Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?87233-World-Cup-Qualifiers/page4#Kzy1ErdxQHlYldWd.99

It would be interesting to see what the average wage of an England/club footballer was in these years.

A case could be made for the increase in wages/trophy birds/image rights/tattoos/diamond earings and other footballer accoutrements, as they seem to think that once they have all 4 at the age of 19 - they are a "proven" footballer, and they lose their hunger.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I don't think the PL has hindered the National team, Children are attached to clubs at a much younger age, facilities at clubs are at a completely different level, financial incentives are at an all time high, our youth players are exposed to some of the worlds best players and coach's, all that talent is still there, we just need to bring it together, whether it's our expectations or the media, the facts are, is that we are still producing players of the highest level, but they are failing to produce when it really matters.

I wonder if you have had experience of the Academy system now dominating the youth development in England. It is claimed that it is breeding the players of the future and yet the Clubs themselves are reluctant to avail themselves of that talent.

Possibly because we are not producing players of the highest level. The level of football played by the young players at PL clubs fails to prepare them for progression and they are often not exposed to the world's best players and coaches as Clubs tend to operate separate training groups/sessions for their Development Squads away from their First Team.

Before they reach that stage most of those trawled by the Academies have already been released and of those that remain few, if any, make a breakthrough.

I appreciate that this is rather diverting from the OP but the Academy System really is not helping.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I wonder if you have had experience of the Academy system now dominating the youth development in England. It is claimed that it is breeding the players of the future and yet the Clubs themselves are reluctant to avail themselves of that talent.

Possibly because we are not producing players of the highest level. The level of football played by the young players at PL clubs fails to prepare them for progression and they are often not exposed to the world's best players and coaches as Clubs tend to operate separate training groups/sessions for their Development Squads away from their First Team.

Before they reach that stage most of those trawled by the Academies have already been released and of those that remain few, if any, make a breakthrough.

I appreciate that this is rather diverting from the OP but the Academy System really is not helping.

The only exposure I've had to the Academy system is visiting Sunderlands and Readings over the past few years and taking an interest in Evertons, Everton have had a lot of involvement with Senior Players and Staff over the past few years and judging on the amount of youngsters we have produced it doesn't seem too bad, maybe not World Class but still one of the more succesful ones. If England are getting releative success at U19 and U21 level etc then somewhere along that pipeline it's working, maybe Liverbirdie has a point, too much too soon and the hunger wanes.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The only exposure I've had to the Academy system is visiting Sunderlands and Readings over the past few years and taking an interest in Evertons, Everton have had a lot of involvement with Senior Players and Staff over the past few years and judging on the amount of youngsters we have produced it doesn't seem too bad, maybe not World Class but still one of the more succesful ones. If England are getting releative success at U19 and U21 level etc then somewhere along that pipeline it's working, maybe Liverbirdie has a point, too much too soon and the hunger wanes.

I agree that some, like Everton & Southampton, have been successful but not the vast majority.

As for Liverbirdie's point I could not agree more. 18 & 19 year olds being paid £500k - £750k p.a. driving Range Rovers etc; and still to kick a ball for the first team!

How do you maintain the hunger to achieve? Some (Rashford, Barkley & Stirling) come through but a lot just do not "train on".

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I agree that some, like Everton & Southampton, have been successful but not the vast majority.

As for Liverbirdie's point I could not agree more. 18 & 19 year olds being paid £500k - £750k p.a. driving Range Rovers etc; and still to kick a ball for the first team!

How do you maintain the hunger to achieve? Some (Rashford, Barkley & Stirling) come through but a lot just do not "train on".

The hunger one is the issue. We/The English get slagged off for not showing or having the Pride in the flag that other Nations show or when we do we're accussed of arrogance, unfortunately only the players on the pitch can address that, hate hearing English people wanting their National Team in any sport to fail, that's beyond me.
We definitely need to stop the culture of some players almost guaranteed their squad place, even after only 3 games into the season Sam didn't go on form, Vardy and Drinkwater have started the season far better than others yet niether got on the pitch, if no player feels safe, maybe their hunger will increase.

 

[One Planer]

Just reading on the Beeb website, Big Sam saying he can't tell Rooney where to play!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37271746

Am I missing something here or is that not quite a significant part of his function as manager of the team?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree that some, like Everton & Southampton, have been successful but not the vast majority.

As for Liverbirdie's point I could not agree more. 18 & 19 year olds being paid £500k - £750k p.a. driving Range Rovers etc; and still to kick a ball for the first team!

How do you maintain the hunger to achieve? Some (Rashford, Barkley & Stirling) come through but a lot just do not "train on".

Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp

England have the talent available to progress

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England -

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp

England have the talent available to progress

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England -

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together

So were are all these youth players in the Clubs or do they lose all their ability at age 22, if we all had to pick a 23 man squad I reckon most of us would have at least the same 15, and why do these managers qualify with ease then mess up at the finals?
These smaller nations are having a ride of a lifetime, they're not outdoing us year after year.

 

[Papas1982]

Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp

England have the talent available to progress

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England -

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together

How many of those young talented stars will actually go on to play for england? Unlike a lot of nations, we very rarely send all the available players. The players in the u21 still have the hunger as they arent "stars" or at big clubs. PLayers like Stones, and barkely for example were young enoug to play in the u21 last summer but got it off as they were part of the main squad. Its that entitlement that ruins their attitude.

Look at the recent germany and spain sides and how many caps their stars got at u21 level, then look at ours. We put them straight in after a 6month purple patch and then they nver step back down to get used to tournament pressure.

The managers arent the sole reason we fail. There are too many causes and blaming just the manager is simplistic.

 

[Robobum]

How many of those young talented stars will actually go on to play for england? Unlike a lot of nations, we very rarely send all the available players. The players in the u21 still have the hunger as they arent "stars" or at big clubs. PLayers like Stones, and barkely for example were young enoug to play in the u21 last summer but got it off as they were part of the main squad. Its that entitlement that ruins their attitude.

Look at the recent germany and spain sides and how many caps their stars got at u21 level, then look at ours. We put them straight in after a 6month purple patch and then they nver step back down to get used to tournament pressure.

The managers arent the sole reason we fail. There are too many causes and blaming just the manager is simplistic.

Stuart Pearce is a massive advocate of players staying in age group and gaining tournament experience.

The FA have never picked the wrong man for the job. In their opinion, and given any limitations on availability at the time of appointment, they appointment the best available person. Many will disagree with that choice, but they aren't tasked with appointing.

It's a sad game that people play, slagging off someone before they've even started the job! The bar is set pretty low, so let's sit back and give Sam (no prefix) a go.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So were are all these youth players in the Clubs or do they lose all their ability at age 22, if we all had to pick a 23 man squad I reckon most of us would have at least the same 15, and why do these managers qualify with ease then mess up at the finals?
These smaller nations are having a ride of a lifetime, they're not outdoing us year after year.

The players are still there and around playing in the leagues but the career path just stops after under 21

One of things the Germans do is give their youngsters tournament experience when one comes around

Last year there was an U21 comp - all the players that could go from the main squad should have gone - Sterling , Kane , Shaw , Stones etc all should have gone - it gives them exposure to the summer tournament where the pressure isn't on so much - it's something Klinsmann started with the Germany set up

Instead England save them for some meaningless friendly and keep them around the main squad and suggest they need a break - the players are good enough but they need to be able to learn in summer tournaments - you can't do that during a WC or a Euro's

Erikson is continuely slagged off for failing yet for three summer tournaments in a row he got England into quarter finals and was penalty shoot out away from semi's - he achieved what should be the level for England.

When they go "Mid table English" - ( Taylor , McClaren, Hodgson ) they either fail to qualify or play not to lose in the tournament and freeze and just flop horribly. They fail to even inspire some heart or desire or passion into the players ( think this is at least where it will be different with Allardyce )

I would put money on a manager like Loew for example getting England to a semi final at the next Summer tournament

And one accusation I keep reading is the suggestion that English people wanting England to fail - not once seen it suggested unless from someone from Scotland

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Not all young players are like that - in fact I would go far as to suggest that the majority aren't like that at all -

Again it seems it's common to bash the English players and dismiss the progress youth players are making

England Under 21 won the Toulon Comp during the summer

The Under 19's lost a close Semi to Italy in their comp

England have the talent available to progress

To constantly go on about a small pool ignore the fact that countries with smaller pools around the world have been successful and have progressed further than England -

So why when other countries can transition their youth through and why can other countries with smaller pool of players provide success and get into the latter stages of summer comps

I put it simply - the FA keep appointing the wrong manager

During the Euro's England had a pretty good squad that was capable to get into quarters and maybe the Semi's - just like Wales ( smaller pool of players ) - the thjng holding them back - the manager

When you look at England's tournament results over the last 40 years the failures coincide with the poor managers

Taylor - failed to qualify for WC
McClaren - failed to qualify for Euro's
Hodgson - failed to get out of group in WC then couldn't even reach the quarters of the Euro's when all the smaller nations were playing

They are England's worst managers in recent years and every single one has a common theme -

The Premier league isn't the reason that England keep failing - there is nothing that back that up

Poor managerial choices are a very big reason why England keep failing

The players are there , the coaches are there , the facilities and funding is there for England to regualry get into later stages of comps - they don't employ the manager to bring it all together

The Toulon tournament is hardly the strongest (and is for U20's). However, just look at the players who represented England and see how few of them are appearing regularly in the PL.

As for other countries e.g. Wales, Iceland etc; these are one-offs, what happened to Denmark and Greece after their Euro successes.

In this country our expectations are unrealistic. To regularly achieve quarter finals at World Cups we would have to be one of the eight best teams in the world and we are not.

You can continue your vendetta against Hodgson & Allardyce as long as you like but the truth is that even great managers need good players and England does not produce enough good international players to consistently compete with the best.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The players are still there and around playing in the leagues but the career path just stops after under 21

One of things the Germans do is give their youngsters tournament experience when one comes around

Last year there was an U21 comp - all the players that could go from the main squad should have gone - Sterling , Kane , Shaw , Stones etc all should have gone - it gives them exposure to the summer tournament where the pressure isn't on so much - it's something Klinsmann started with the Germany set up

Instead England save them for some meaningless friendly and keep them around the main squad and suggest they need a break - the players are good enough but they need to be able to learn in summer tournaments - you can't do that during a WC or a Euro's

Erikson is continuely slagged off for failing yet for three summer tournaments in a row he got England into quarter finals and was penalty shoot out away from semi's - he achieved what should be the level for England.

When they go "Mid table English" - ( Taylor , McClaren, Hodgson ) they either fail to qualify or play not to lose in the tournament and freeze and just flop horribly. They fail to even inspire some heart or desire or passion into the players ( think this is at least where it will be different with Allardyce )

I would put money on a manager like Loew for example getting England to a semi final at the next Summer tournament

And one accusation I keep reading is the suggestion that English people wanting England to fail - not once seen it suggested unless from someone from Scotland

The policy with the youth is not down to the manager, he'll only pick what he believes is his best squad.

Like I've posted previously, Sam would not be my first choice, but he's now the manager and should be given 100% support until results prove him to be the wrong man.

You may not be saying directly you want England to lose, but you do come across very negative at times towards the National team and that can be interpreted (maybe wrongly) that England losing proves your point.

We also have that strong Scouse Not English contingent present in your club side and they do post on social media how they like to see England lose.

 

[Pin-seeker]

It's ok banging on about getting the right man.
But who is the right man?

 

[Beezerk]

God, this thread is a bore fest already. Same old same olds zzzzZZZZzzzz

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Very odd watching Croatia v Turkey with no crowd in attendance. Does anyone know if they can choose any ground when ordered to play behind closed doors or do they have to play in the National Stadium?

 

[Old Skier]

It's ok banging on about getting the right man.
But who is the right man?

Coleman .

Problem with England in the last twenty years + is rather than put a number of players together that can play as a team England pick a bunch of reasonably good individuals and expect them to play as a team. Anyone who has been involved in team selection know that's not how it works. Sam's made a complete fool of himself with his statement on Rooney, he's there to manage and come up with a strategy not to chuck 11 players on the park and tell them to crack on.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Coleman .

Problem with England in the last twenty years + is rather than put a number of players together that can play as a team England pick a bunch of reasonably good individuals and expect them to play as a team. Anyone who has been involved in team selection know that's not how it works. Sam's made a complete fool of himself with his statement on Rooney, he's there to manage and come up with a strategy not to chuck 11 players on the park and tell them to crack on.

Were 3 games into the season, Sam had 4 full days with them after he'd selected a squad based on 2 games and he got a result.
Why not give him a chance rather than judge him immediately, he might just do exactly what you've put.