World Cup Qualifiers

[HomerJSimpson]

Well Chris Waddle doesn't agree with you. Just said on Radio 5 that S am Allardyce has far too small a pool of players to pick from and it isn't getting any better.

Just look at last week's results in the EFL Trophy where the U23 teams from most of the PL clubs came in with a view to gaining meaningful experience. Almost without exception the League 1 & 2 clubs, many of whom did not field their strongest teams, came out on top.

The players of Wales and Iceland have lower expectations placed upon them and are, themselves, more realistic about their capabilities.

And Waddle is totally correct. As the influx of overseas players to the PL continues, the pool of top class English players diminishes. We've rarely if ever in recent memory looked at the Championship for players but I fear it's a possibility going forward. Where else do you look if the PL pool reduces?

 

[Hacker Khan]

And just how much success did we have under either Eriksson or Capello?

The truth of the matter is that we have very few, if any, players of true quality and have not had for many years. It is certainly not a cop-out to blame the Premier League for this as it (the PL) has become so bloated in its importance by the media, the money and then the fans that there is a demand for instant results.

The players, as a result, believe they are better than they are compared with those of supposedly lesser nations such as Wales or Iceland where the players compensate for their limitations with commitment and organisation, the latter admittedly the responsibility of the manager.

However, the England manager is hampered by the PL and the its clubs and their interests.The clubs' managers, most of whom are foreign, have no interest in the performance of the national team and are far more concerned to achieve results for their club's owners (also increasingly foreign).Thus they take the quick and easy route of recruiting established players from overseas rather than develop home grown talent. Even the much vaunted academies are increasingly developing foreign youngsters.

On any week-end the number of players starting in the PL eligible for the Home Nations is likely to be only around 30%.

As with any pyramid, if you have a narrow base you do not have a high peak.

Agree. And of the 30% then about 70% of those play for unfashionable teams that means they have little chance of playing for England. And those that play for big teams who do get picked are mostly made to look good in their domestic teams by foreign players who make the teams tick.

We are where we are, holding 10 man Slovakia to a draw/last second win is kind of the level we are at. We may beat better teams, we may lose to worse ones.

 

[Blue in Munich]

And Waddle is totally correct. As the influx of overseas players to the PL continues, the pool of top class English players diminishes. We've rarely if ever in recent memory looked at the Championship for players but I fear it's a possibility going forward. Where else do you look if the PL pool reduces?

And the reason for the influx is that technically they are streets ahead because of the way they run youth football, something Martin Samuel pointed out years ago. What have we changed? Absolutely nothing.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well Chris Waddle doesn't agree with you. Just said on Radio 5 that S am Allardyce has far too small a pool of players to pick from and it isn't getting any better.

Just look at last week's results in the EFL Trophy where the U23 teams from most of the PL clubs came in with a view to gaining meaningful experience. Almost without exception the League 1 & 2 clubs, many of whom did not field their strongest teams, came out on top.

The players of Wales and Iceland have lower expectations placed upon them and are, themselves, more realistic about their capabilities.

Chris Waddle also wants players like Lallana and Sterling to play as wingers to hug the touch line and dribble past fullbacks when it's clearly not their game , Waddle also questioned why Rashford and players like Drinkwater , Vardy and Barkley weren't playing.

Teams like Wales and Iceland got further in the Euro's with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level than England , same with N Ireland , as I said Portugal have a smaller pool of players with only a handful of recognised names - so how come teams with smaller pool of players and players playing at a lower level than England can go further ? Because of good management and playing the right people.

Do England have the players to get into quarters and semi finals - yes they do

England have won one comp in over a hundred years so why is there an expectation they should do more than Quarters or semi finals ?

Blaming the Premier League is just a cop out and masks plenty of issues that can be drilled right back to the FA - England have failed even when there was zero foreign players playing in the top clubs

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Agree. And of the 30% then about 70% of those play for unfashionable teams that means they have little chance of playing for England. And those that play for big teams who do get picked are mostly made to look good in their domestic teams by foreign players who make the teams tick.

We are where we are, holding 10 man Slovakia to a draw/last second win is kind of the level we are at. We may beat better teams, we may lose to worse ones.

You are so right. We struggled to break Slovakia down (again) and we are at best at the second tier of European nations and a lot further down on a world stage, irrespective of what FIFA ranking may say. Even when we qualify we look inadequate on a European or world stage and tonight gives me no reason to believe that Allardyce is going to be any closer to solving this problem than his predecessors

 

[Deleted member 1740]

I'm made up for Lallana, he takes stick week in week out but he played well today and spared Big Sam's blushes with a goal.

It's hard to appreciate some footballers from the comfort of your armchair, sky don't show everything.

 

[chrisd]

I'm made up for Lallana, he takes stick week in week out but he played well today and spared Big Sam's blushes with a goal.

It's hard to appreciate some footballers from the comfort of your armchair, sky don't show everything.

To be fair, he was probably our best player in the Euro's

 

[Deleted member 1740]

To be fair, he was probably our best player in the Euro's

I agree. He's improved for us, he just needs to add more goals.

 

[Papas1982]

Well just caught up on the football, and the thread.

Key points bout the game. We managed to beat a team we struggled against a few weeks a go so that's a positive. Rooney is struggling, still think there's a decent cm in him, but only with pace ahead of him. He still played some good balls.

As as to our players in general, how many of them are the star? If you're sterling, do you looking better playing alongside a flying Gerard, Suarez and sturridge or silva and aguero. Or a static kane and clueless Walcott.
most of our players are decent, few are their teams star man. And whilst they may be better as individuals than what Wales or Iceland have, whilst they believe their hype they won't out perform these teams, as talent only gets you so far. Even the barca of the last, few years have won the ball back better than most before showing their talents.

No no matter who's in charge, if the players don't roll their sleeves up then they will continue to cost managers their jobs with inept performances.

 

[paddyc]

Its a win and thats what matters.The slovakians were always going to put 11 behind the ball just like the euros and try and frustrate England. Sam's first priority was to shore up the defence and not lose the game. We will be hard to beat but it won't be pretty as we grind out one nil wins

 

[pbrown7582]

Its a win and thats what matters.The slovakians were always going to put 11 behind the ball just like the euros and try and frustrate England. Sam's first priority was to shore up the defence and not lose the game. We will be hard to beat but it won't be pretty as we grind out one nil wins

Exactly how can much change in 4 days between June and sept? Toughest match in the group we won.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Chris Waddle also wants players like Lallana and Sterling to play as wingers to hug the touch line and dribble past fullbacks when it's clearly not their game , Waddle also questioned why Rashford and players like Drinkwater , Vardy and Barkley weren't playing.

Teams like Wales and Iceland got further in the Euro's with a smaller pool of players playing at a lower level than England , same with N Ireland , as I said Portugal have a smaller pool of players with only a handful of recognised names - so how come teams with smaller pool of players and players playing at a lower level than England can go further ? Because of good management and playing the right people.

Do England have the players to get into quarters and semi finals - yes they do

England have won one comp in over a hundred years so why is there an expectation they should do more than Quarters or semi finals ?

Blaming the Premier League is just a cop out and masks plenty of issues that can be drilled right back to the FA - England have failed even when there was zero foreign players playing in the top clubs

I have heard Waddle suggest that England require width from other than the full-backs, he has not suggested that it should specifically provided by Lallana or Sterling. Mind you it would not have been unreasonable to ask them to do so tonight as they neither are international class in more central roles. But then what England player is truly international class?

It is ludicrous to suggest we have the quality of players to reach quarter and semi-finals. We clearly do not. How many of tonight's team are consistent performers for their club sides? They rely upon the foreign players in their teams to carry them through.

The influx of foreign players to our leagues took hold in the early 90's and from that point on it has been pretty consistently downhill.

As for the shortage of young players coming through, don't blame the FA; the clubs have demanded that their academy system should sit at the top of youth development and we can all see how unsuccessful that has been.

We all have to realise that the Club game is all powerful and dominant in English football, and once we accept that we can, hopefully, stop placing unrealistic expectations on the national side.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Interesting how different people can watch the same match and come up with such different opinions. I thought Rooney, Henderson, Kane and Lallana stood out as being especially poor in an overall poor performance. Until Dele Alli came on England were far too static when going forward. The man on the ball was looking up for someone to pass forwards to and all the players in advanced positions were standing still facing him rather than looking to make a run.

Would there be any merit in looking at a 5-3-2/3-5-2 formation? I know we aren't blessed with centre backs but maybe Cahill, Smalling and Stones at the back. Walker and Rose providing the width. Dier, Alli and AN Other in the centre of midfield and then either 2 up front or one up front with one in behind. Not sure if it would work but surely we need to try something different rather than trotting out the same sub standard performances time and time again.

 

[anotherdouble]

I think as a mid 50 year old what I saw tonight I will have to put up with for the rest of my days. It is stupid of me to expect any different especially when 7 of the 14 players tonight were in the 2014 World Cup squad and that campaign was hardly successful and the same players carried our hopes through euro 2016. I will still watch every game more with hope than expectation but with some stroke of luck and good fortune I get see a tournament winning England side before I meet St Peter at the gates

 

[sawtooth]

I'm not sure what everyone was expecting..
It's basically the same team from 3 months ago, the manager's been in place for a month and has had the players for less than a week...
Not much time to effect any real change....

Exactly right.

Sam probably played it safe for his first game in charge not making too many sweeping changes and over time he will drop people that aren't cutting it and draft in new faces.

Give the guy a chance I say.

 

[paddyc]

Yes it was the same team and similar performance except the result, but I did feel there was more committment,desire,passion and confidence and know Allardyce is a great motivator and they were playing for him unlike Hodgson

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I have heard Waddle suggest that England require width from other than the full-backs, he has not suggested that it should specifically provided by Lallana or Sterling. Mind you it would not have been unreasonable to ask them to do so tonight as they neither are international class in more central roles. But then what England player is truly international class?

It is ludicrous to suggest we have the quality of players to reach quarter and semi-finals. We clearly do not. How many of tonight's team are consistent performers for their club sides? They rely upon the foreign players in their teams to carry them through.

The influx of foreign players to our leagues took hold in the early 90's and from that point on it has been pretty consistently downhill.

As for the shortage of young players coming through, don't blame the FA; the clubs have demanded that their academy system should sit at the top of youth development and we can all see how unsuccessful that has been.

We all have to realise that the Club game is all powerful and dominant in English football, and once we accept that we can, hopefully, stop placing unrealistic expectations on the national side.

So again I'll ask the same question that doesn't seem to be getting answered

Why do other countries with a smaller pool of players playing in lower leagues with less talented players seem to get further in tournaments ?

The England team today all had key players from top clubs

Except Hart now The back four all starters from CL Clubs , all the starting line up are starters at big clubs in the Prem. Then there is key players from the Prem League winners in Vardy and Drinkwater

The England squad has more ability in it that other teams that have progressed further - it has been poorly managed for a good number of years

As for the youth - during the summer the England U21 won the Toulon Comp , the under 20's into the Semi's of their comp

Far too quickly people dismiss talented English players - have the reason is because fossil managers don't have a clue what to do with creative players like Rashford or Barkley , they are far too scared to let players express themselves - Sterling is a classic case , Pep arrives and rebuilds his shattered confidence and gets him showing the talent that made City pay £50 mil - goes to England and it's the same old same old - give him and players like Lallana , Barkely , Rashford etc the license to express themselves on a pitch. Tonight why when going away to play a team that was always going to sit deep did they play Dier as a sitting mid meaning Rooney dropping to halfway line to pick the ball up which then leaves Kane isolated again. They didn't need Dier - put Drinkwater alongside Barkley , they can control the game and let the guys in front be fluid , Walker is another issue at RB - he is quick and that's it , he can't go past people or cross the ball so why not bring in Clynne who can go past people

It needs a brave bright fresh young manager to play the players properly and get the best out of their talents but for that it needs the FA to be brave as well and that's never going to happen

There is players that can take England to quarter finals and maybe further which is a good level to be at.

Blaming the Prem just masks it's all - the Prem wasn't around when England failed in the 70's or in the Euro's in the 80's or 90's or WC they failed to qualify for

In my lifetime they have had two bright managers who were willing to try something different and if it wasn't working they tried something different - Bobby and Venables , England need someone of their ability regardless of where they come from.

 

[Pin-seeker]

Surely Big Sam can play the old "It's not my team yet"and then obviously he needs time for the team to gel.
Or is that just League managers that get time?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Didnt really see any difference than the Euro shambles really. Don't see the point in Rooney.....wandering off as he likes confusing everyone else with them being afraid to get in the "saviours" way. If they got a position to play then play it, and if they won't put someone else on who will do the TEAM ETHIC thing.
As usual England is all about individuals which is why we will never get anywhere.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Didnt really see any difference than the Euro shambles really. Don't see the point in Rooney.....wandering off as he likes confusing everyone else with them being afraid to get in the "saviours" way. If they got a position to play then play it, and if they won't put someone else on who will do the TEAM ETHIC thing.
As usual England is all about individuals which is why we will never get anywhere.

Even Alladyce was saying post match that Rooney didn't seem to stick to the plan and was roaming too freely. Does Rooney think he's too big and too important as captain to do as he's asked