louise_a
Money List Winner
This!
Women in men's competitions.
- Thread starter Copernicus
- Start date
This!
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
All our comps are mixed and I am often paired with two men. On most tees I need to stand back with the guys until they hit before moving to my tee, checking yardage if necessary, picking a club, preparing to play and finally hitting the shot. If we were on the same tee I'd have done much of that while they were playing. Inevitably groups playing from a mixture of tees are going to take a bit longer.
GreggerKBR
Head Pro
Actually yes, I agree, I personally want competitions that do a bit of everything and some that include everybody.
I don't really care about their ability, gender or the tee they use.
I'm more interrogating and testing the many statements on this thread about "different tees" and gender separation.
But the point stands... for example
In field hockey we have Mens, Ladies and Mixed, vets, SuperVets, boys/girls U10s to U18's, etc etc..
And within that we have different leagues - players usually land up in the teams/leagues most suited to their ability.
It's an inclusive sport - with great attendance. Although everyone wants to "grow the game" etc.
So why do people have a problem either for/against the same formats in golf?
IanG
Tour Rookie
The other sports have these league structures out of necessity because it is very hard to have a handicapping system in football (say) that is reliable and doesn't spoil the game. Golf luckily does have such a system so we can all compete together for handicap prizes. We all know that scratch competitions are where the real bragging rights lie, but since most of us have no chance of winning such an event, we settle for social, enjoyable handicap golf - which should not be taken too seriously.
On a slightly different tangent, we have some board events that are open to both and while it's not compulsory to play in mixed pairs (and to be honest the women at my club prefer not to) it works perfectly well and the scores are worked on the respective CSS's and the winner calculated accordingly. Works well and we've had women winning, (that always put's some of the male members noses out of joint). I'm happy and let the club and handicap secretary get on with it
Green Bay Hacker
Journeyman Pro
Last Summer, to attract additional entrants, our club allowed visitors and ladies to enter our 9 hole social comp on a Wednesday. My daughter came up with me to play in one of the early ones and promptly won it with 23 points.
GreggerKBR
Head Pro
So is it working? This friendly not too serious ideal. Is the game growing? Are heaps of 20-40 year olds participating in the amateur golf comps at clubs above the "scratch game"?
Certainly not in my club. Or any of the other 6 clubs I've been involved with.
And this is the same problem they talk about at county meetings.
Is there any chance anyone might consider that maybe the "old way" is why nothing is changing?
Certainly not in my club. Or any of the other 6 clubs I've been involved with.
And this is the same problem they talk about at county meetings.
Is there any chance anyone might consider that maybe the "old way" is why nothing is changing?
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
I'm actually struggling to see what idea it is you have ? Make it more competitive to attract more people to play golf ? In all the meetings and seminars about growing golf I can't ever recall it ever being mentioned that people were leaving golf or not starting golf due to it not being competitive enough ? Whenever someone has left our club not once has it been because of the comps ?
In reply to your "Is it Working" - for us yes our changes by turning all the medals and Stableford into comps has allowed us to attract more working ladies to the club and they in turn bring their partners.
As for attracting 20-40 year old -3 years ago we had about 4/5 - we now have 80 plus all playing in our comps
The "old way" was ladies stuck on a midweek day - not allowed or male only comps on a Saturday/Sunday meaning they couldn't play at weekend - with the changes clubs are doing more ladies are playing golf.
So I'm not actually sure what problem you are looking at and what your solution is ?
Capella
Journeyman Pro
I don't quite understand. For the younger, more competitive players, who are good enough to play in regional amateur events etc., the divisions exist, don't they? At least in Germany, we have ranking tournaments for the juniors in 2 year age groups (so under 14, under 16, under 18 for example), and then there is a young seniors category (age 35 and up), a seniors category (age 50) and an age 65 and up category, and of course on that level men and women do compete seperately. But for club internal comps where mid to high handicappers bash the ball around? I don't think, adding more competitiveness there would attract more players. Also, realistically, with a hanidcap in place, the only person you are competing against is yourself (and maybe the moron who designed the golf course). It is about how well you play in comparison to how well you played the weeks and months before. No more, no less.
Radbourne2010
Challenge Tour Pro
Fine with mixed competitions as long as everyone plays off the Medal Tee of the day. Little bemused why women would want to play in a Men's competition but as long as this is reciprocated for Ladies Comps (playing off the Red Tee of the day) I'm happy to play along :smirk:
Played with ladies in a Sat morning swindle at my old club in Bishop's Stortford. They were great fun and got it round as quick, if not quicker than the gents off mid-teen H/Cap who insisted playing off the White Tees. My new club trialled new non-Gender tees. These simply show overall distance & SSS compared to Par. You choose in non-Comp games which tee you play off. Great idea! :thup:
Not sure what is happening in regard to Equality in golf. All the Home Unions have amalgamated but the age limit for UK Men's Amateur Senior golf is still 55, compared to 50 in Women's Amateur golf / Men's Professional / European & USA Senior events
Played with ladies in a Sat morning swindle at my old club in Bishop's Stortford. They were great fun and got it round as quick, if not quicker than the gents off mid-teen H/Cap who insisted playing off the White Tees. My new club trialled new non-Gender tees. These simply show overall distance & SSS compared to Par. You choose in non-Comp games which tee you play off. Great idea! :thup:
Not sure what is happening in regard to Equality in golf. All the Home Unions have amalgamated but the age limit for UK Men's Amateur Senior golf is still 55, compared to 50 in Women's Amateur golf / Men's Professional / European & USA Senior events
GreggerKBR
Head Pro
Earlier I said this -
"I think this is coming to the point now, that different players are in different leagues, in many other sports we have different leagues.
In golf clubs you find a scratch team and h/c team etc. and sometimes A, B, C teams etc. for club matches.
The very nature of this thread indicates that there is separation in ability - regardless of gender or age.
But it doesn't go far enough in other competitions.
It seems we are stuck in wanting "serious" competitions that everybody can compete in.
That's fine but then you will have this gender and tee/ability issue.
But perhaps we need to modernise and have more competitions that are category-only specific.
And then each category can play off the same tee?"
I'm pleased to hear that you've been successful in changing the age and gender demographic and participation at your club - that's great news!
By confirming that a short while ago you had 4-5 players in the 20-40 group you've actually confirmed one of the points I was making, which is that in general, many clubs struggle to attract and keep 20-40 yr olds.
You've obviously had to do things to change that - you accepted there was a problem.
A lot of clubs heavily discount their subscription fees to attract them - as an ex club GM I can tell you that's not great business and I wish I'd tried different things to avoid giving discounts. Slightly different with members-only than non-commercial clubs. So why are other sports so successful at keeping this age group entertained and involved?
I've never been in a club where ladies are restricted to mid-week only, but I have seen restrictions on playing times for juniors.
I'm keen that everyone should be able to compete. And what I'm saying though is maybe not every 20-40 yr old wants to compete against scratch players at one end and older men/ladies at the other. Maybe they want to play in leagues and formats that are specific to their ability and demographic. It seems you simply don't agree, that's fine. I don't want or need your agreement, but I do want to try and get golf clubs and those in governing positions to continually challenge their thinking.
Look, I don't expect anything will change. Perhaps you think I'm bonkers suggesting this stuff.
It seems we're happy to have all inclusive competitions. We're happy to vets only. Ladies only. Men only. Scratch only.
What I'm saying is in-club, inter club, inter-county, all based on league (ability) competitions, stroke play and match play arranged in ability divisions off the same tee regardless of age or gender might mean more interest for the competitively minded player.
I grew up in an era with education that was meritoric, Standard 9 A, B, C, D. With A being the brainy ones and D the one's unable to handle complex studies/subjects. We also had U15 A to D teams. A being the top level and D being the lesser ability group. It's natural selection - it's happening everywhere - throughout our world and in nature.
So I'm suggesting this in addition to what we are already doing - I like all the mixed formats, including everyone - I'm not suggesting they are not healthy and successful. What I'm saying is mix them, but stick them in ability divisions. And set the course to the ability.
So the A team play the back tees and it goes shorter accordingly.
Our men's section ran a mixed Texas Scramble. Over 100 entrants. First 2 teams included a young lad off 32 and a young girl off 30, some 0-5 h/c and 20+ older players - this is brilliant!
Shortly after the ladies section ran a similar competition and got only 30 entrants. For a shotgun start.
Texas scramble is the easiest most fun most inclusive game in golf, and this was a failure. So you are not going to convince me that everything is fine and we're doing just great, it's just a poor turnout! People blamed the winter etc. but it's just excuses, it's history repeating itself, the fact is this - there are not enough women enjoying the game.
Golf as a game has managed to push away the very people we keep telling ourselves we've been attracting. Shorter course formats and more involvement for all (especially the weaker players) is desperately needed, nurturing them into better players or when they don't having formats that keep them connected to the sport. The image of the game is that it takes too long, too this, too that. I played some premier division hockey, I trained 3-5 days a week and my weekends were totally taken up by hockey, away matches were halfway across the country and I've had to sleep in motels to be ready to play. That's a lot of commitment - but I didn't leave hockey because of that - at all (injury).
It's clear to me that when you get to 18 years old, if you are a decent player (scratch) you keep playing as there's scratch and county stuff for you. But if you are at the majority (>5 h/c or even >25 h/c), you don't play with your buddy or family then you'll probably quit the game until you're a bit older... you still like golf, but it's not worth the effort. I do not believe it's because of the age old excuse of "time/money". Plenty of 20-40's playing plenty of other sports and making time and financial commitments.
We keep saying golf is different, it's all inclusive, but -
- we seem to be continually struggling with opinion on equality and gender participation (as this thread indicates)
- we keep hearing the game is in decline
- we keep hearing clubs are struggling financially
- because of handicapping it's a game for everyone - try telling that to a 25 year old who can't break 100, whose internal perspective is that they are no good at the game, they can't compete and are thinking they will have more fun playing for the local 5th team at football/hockey or whatever with their mates. We are not attracting them, we're losing them. And this is the same for the gender and ability arguments I've been trying to put forward. People are quitting or not even starting because there is not enough in it for them.
But we insist that our handicapping is the solution. But (IMHO) it's actually driving some people away, because they can't get better and think that's what they have to do. But when they accept who they are (a 100+ player) and have a connection and identity with the group they can compete with they are happy... and maybe we can keep them and attract more like them.
This is a generalisation - so no offence is meant to those clubs that are doing well.
I hope this makes it a bit more clear where I'm coming from. Not that I expect people to agree or that anything will change.
Gregger - Quite a post and I find that I agree with pretty much all of it. Well argued and even if others don't agree I hope they can see the reasoning behind your post.
I think your second last paragraph is a really good point and I like that in particular. I have a vague memory of playing golf in N.Yorkshire and seeing a number of clubs that had Rabbit sections that ran within existing comps. I had never heard of Rabbit sections so I asked about it. They were for players 18+ h/c, a division within the main comp, as you suggest. I liked the idea then, I like it now.
I think your second last paragraph is a really good point and I like that in particular. I have a vague memory of playing golf in N.Yorkshire and seeing a number of clubs that had Rabbit sections that ran within existing comps. I had never heard of Rabbit sections so I asked about it. They were for players 18+ h/c, a division within the main comp, as you suggest. I liked the idea then, I like it now.
GreggerKBR
Head Pro
Gosh yes sorry! Very lengthy!
Hopefully the Rabbits have successfully multiplied
and proven the point!
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Again I think you are looking to change something that isn't a problem
Two things stop youngsters playing golf - money and time - you may not believe it but many studies after speaking to people show it to be the actual case
Not levels of competitiveness , not the lack of competitions with people of various abilities
Other sports are done within a couple of hours and don't cost thousands to play - I too played high level hockey as does my wife - it still doesn't cost as much or take up as much time
Your generalisation is imo wrong based on sitting on plenty of get into golf meetings as is the suggestion that people leave golf because of the Handicap
We have an academy membership for people starting and for the 25 year who can't break 100 - he uses that membership to see if he can improve to them get down below the 28 HC - most do.
You can't change a who make up of the competitions at a golf club to suit someone who can't improve
There is a competition for everyone - if you want to play in comps with a little bit more ridding on it then there are Opens, Mid Ams , County Comps even within club medals they are seperated by divisions the number dependant on the amount playing , KO's for high handicappers , low HC , Mid HC - all clubs have various different comps for all ages and levels
Game in Decline - actually it appears to be levelling out across the country , some clubs will struggle and that's because of the standard of the course and the cost to maintain it to a standard means the club struggles - also the current financial situation hasn't helped
There is no sport model from football or hockey etc - "team sports" that transfer onto Amatuer Club golf - it's a game you play against yourself at the end of the day with a amateur HC solution in place to try and make it a level playing field and generally it works - it doesn't drive people away
Like I said you are looking to solve a problem that doesn't exist beyond maybe the odd special case
Two things stop youngsters playing golf - money and time - you may not believe it but many studies after speaking to people show it to be the actual case
Not levels of competitiveness , not the lack of competitions with people of various abilities
Other sports are done within a couple of hours and don't cost thousands to play - I too played high level hockey as does my wife - it still doesn't cost as much or take up as much time
Your generalisation is imo wrong based on sitting on plenty of get into golf meetings as is the suggestion that people leave golf because of the Handicap
We have an academy membership for people starting and for the 25 year who can't break 100 - he uses that membership to see if he can improve to them get down below the 28 HC - most do.
You can't change a who make up of the competitions at a golf club to suit someone who can't improve
There is a competition for everyone - if you want to play in comps with a little bit more ridding on it then there are Opens, Mid Ams , County Comps even within club medals they are seperated by divisions the number dependant on the amount playing , KO's for high handicappers , low HC , Mid HC - all clubs have various different comps for all ages and levels
Game in Decline - actually it appears to be levelling out across the country , some clubs will struggle and that's because of the standard of the course and the cost to maintain it to a standard means the club struggles - also the current financial situation hasn't helped
There is no sport model from football or hockey etc - "team sports" that transfer onto Amatuer Club golf - it's a game you play against yourself at the end of the day with a amateur HC solution in place to try and make it a level playing field and generally it works - it doesn't drive people away
Like I said you are looking to solve a problem that doesn't exist beyond maybe the odd special case
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
To add a bit more to it
A question - how many people do you know within your golf club that want to play with people of the same ability ?
Everyone I know within my club just wants to play with their mates week in week out - they don't care about abilities
Also over the last couple of years we have reduced the amount of comps we have due to people complaining about the lack of time at weekends especially people have to play just social golf - I reckon around 1/2 of our membership just want to play social golf , they aren't bothered about comps or where they come , some just enter to play with their mates.
And for us to attract the younger generation we introduce a sliding scale of annual fees because that's why was stopping them from playing - not affordable
A question - how many people do you know within your golf club that want to play with people of the same ability ?
Everyone I know within my club just wants to play with their mates week in week out - they don't care about abilities
Also over the last couple of years we have reduced the amount of comps we have due to people complaining about the lack of time at weekends especially people have to play just social golf - I reckon around 1/2 of our membership just want to play social golf , they aren't bothered about comps or where they come , some just enter to play with their mates.
And for us to attract the younger generation we introduce a sliding scale of annual fees because that's why was stopping them from playing - not affordable
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Whilst I am in a more general agreement with this I would point out -
1. Juniors have a third factor at many clubs - transport!
2. Which links in with the biggest point; there is more disparity between clubs and practices today that ever before. You can't generalise about most elements because there simply aren't standard models any more.
As a simple example, triggered from the starting point to this thread, some clubs will operate on a weekend competition day that any member can compete, including juniors (which don't have a definition in the CONGU manual!), with both male and female competitions running concurrently (but as seperate competitions). Others (many) will run as 'men only', and their competition slots will be oversubscribed every weekend.
Personally I don't see either being right, or wrong, for that club. On the face of it it's what the memberships have joined to do.
Debates as to whether either route has merit for the game as a whole are always interesting.
