Parsaregood
Head Pro
Because if they are playing in the same playing competition it must be from the same tee location to the same pin. Everybody must have an equal playing field. They must then play for a mens handicap
Women in men's competitions.
- Thread starter Copernicus
- Start date
louise_a
Money List Winner
This is rubbish, I am a better than average woman player and some of the carries off the tee from white tees would be impossible for me, let alone others of lesser ability. The likes of FairwayDodger could compete but for the most part they are in the minority.
As previously stated by others the handicapping system and Congu rules provides for women and men to play in handicap competitions on a level playing field.
Copernicus
Club Champion
It's interesting that the split in answers to my question is all about the tees and not the principle of women joining in which is pleasing.
I confess my first instinct was that if in a comp with men it should be the same tees for parity. That feels right - if we want to be treated the same in terms of access we have to take the same conditions.
I don't necessarily see that as a huge problem having accidentally played off mens tees with a male friend last week who is pretty strong and plays off 14 and held my own! ( we always play same tees to be sociable but previously he had played the red tees as he's teaching me. It was a course neither of us had played before and on arrival we were told it was winter tees so we had to use the 'blues'. At my club blues are the academy course. I.e. Forward of the ladies. I was three quarters the way round before I realised blue there were the front of two men's tees and I was playing a longer course than the ladies!!) But maybe that was an easy course in terms of carry of those tees.
Plus, the 'women hit less distance than men' point is true but only as a generalisation. There's no real reason for example a tall strong accurate amateur woman could not match a small older weaker arthritic etc man! And a women who hits less distance accurately with a good short game may fare better than a man who smashes it into the trees/lake/ rough and three putts more often than not. There's going to be an overlap between the two fields and once you combine them into one competition, the distinction by gender gets a little less obvious. .
But, when I think again, a ladies handicap is calculated off the reds so would be inaccurate off a longer course if we played men's tees, surely? Although as a newbie it is almost certainly that I don't understand the handicap premise completely! Feel free to enlighten me in words of one syllable 🙂 Is there something in the handicap rules that deals with this situation and accounts for women playing a course longer than their handicap was acquired on? And why can't we run two handicaps one calculated for playing on ladies one from men's tees so we can do both as circumstances demand? ( and indeed men could too) is it that this is not needed because the system I don't understand already deals with this or has it just nut been dealt with?
I confess my first instinct was that if in a comp with men it should be the same tees for parity. That feels right - if we want to be treated the same in terms of access we have to take the same conditions.
I don't necessarily see that as a huge problem having accidentally played off mens tees with a male friend last week who is pretty strong and plays off 14 and held my own! ( we always play same tees to be sociable but previously he had played the red tees as he's teaching me. It was a course neither of us had played before and on arrival we were told it was winter tees so we had to use the 'blues'. At my club blues are the academy course. I.e. Forward of the ladies. I was three quarters the way round before I realised blue there were the front of two men's tees and I was playing a longer course than the ladies!!) But maybe that was an easy course in terms of carry of those tees.
Plus, the 'women hit less distance than men' point is true but only as a generalisation. There's no real reason for example a tall strong accurate amateur woman could not match a small older weaker arthritic etc man! And a women who hits less distance accurately with a good short game may fare better than a man who smashes it into the trees/lake/ rough and three putts more often than not. There's going to be an overlap between the two fields and once you combine them into one competition, the distinction by gender gets a little less obvious. .
But, when I think again, a ladies handicap is calculated off the reds so would be inaccurate off a longer course if we played men's tees, surely? Although as a newbie it is almost certainly that I don't understand the handicap premise completely! Feel free to enlighten me in words of one syllable 🙂 Is there something in the handicap rules that deals with this situation and accounts for women playing a course longer than their handicap was acquired on? And why can't we run two handicaps one calculated for playing on ladies one from men's tees so we can do both as circumstances demand? ( and indeed men could too) is it that this is not needed because the system I don't understand already deals with this or has it just nut been dealt with?
Last edited:
Parsaregood
Head Pro
If you play in a mens competition you must have a mens handicap, you cannot play in the same competition under different playing conditions. If I was to play in a ladies competition I would expect to do so off a level playing field I.e playing the same golf course. I don't have a problem with ladies playing in men's competitions as long as it's off a level playing field. I'm all for equality
Copernicus
Club Champion
So let's say me with my 36 handicap and my female friend playing off 14. Let's assume we both need one extra shot on each hole on the mens course. On a men's course we should both play with a 28 ( maximum) is that what you mean?
louise_a
Money List Winner
But if women played it would not be a men's competition, it would be a mixed.
The only way it could be done would be for the tees to be rated for women with the appropriate par (in case of stableford comps) and with a different SSS.
AS stated before mixed competitions are cover in the Congu manual, and that ought to be the end of the argument!
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Not for the first time you have just posted absolute drivel
Suggest you read Congu Manual in Regards running mixed competitions of seperate tees.
Parsaregood
Head Pro
The post was if women wanted to play in men's competitions, which would obviously the very odd 1 or 2 women so j really don't think you could class that as mixed, it would just be giving women the option to play if they so wished. I imagine women would probably want to continue playing in their own competitions anyway.
Parsaregood
Head Pro
This thread was not about mixed competitions as they currently exist, it was about allowing women to join men in basically the monthly medal ir cc qualifier which in that case must be played on a level playing field. Women if allowed would be very much in the minority and if 2 women played out of 90 men it would hardly be classed as mixed, but at least it has women joining if they wish.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Our monthly medals are open to all - closed as one result regardless of how many ladies play.
The Handicap system allows the level playing field - the competition can be set up using whatever tee people wish but must be measured and rated - they can use the same tees but must have a CSS for men and ladies.
If you read the Congu Manual it will tell you everything you need to know
doublebogey7
Head Pro
So you only play in scratch events????
Parsaregood
Head Pro
In the main, yes don't really enjoy playing in handicap events. Only play in ones that qualify you for something but will go away and play in open scratch events
Parsaregood
Head Pro
That is like having a competition within a competition, not right in my view. Why not allow juniors too, they can have their own css
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
It's not like that at all - it's one competition with one result and it's perfectly right and works well
Juniors are allowed to play in the Comp provided they have a Congu HC.
TheJezster
Tour Rookie
All this talk of 'mens' competition, it's golf! Just call it that, a golf competition, open to all members of the golf club. Simple, and it will (should) stop all this sexist nonsense. Unless it's scratch no one is playing level so that argument is out of the water. It's 2017 for christs sake, let's start sounding like we're living in today rather than 50 years ago shall we??
Parsaregood
Head Pro
Its about having the same playing conditions of the course not sexism, there are countless older golfers who cannot make carries off the white tees - should they join the ladies aswell? If you have a competition regardless of standing every competitor should play the same golf course. Tees can make holes harder/easier for a variety of reasons other than just length, length is only one factor.
Nickrat
Club Champion
This is an interesting read about "womens" tee's
http://theaposition.com/larrygolfst.../are-women-getting-screwed-on-the-golf-course
http://theaposition.com/larrygolfst.../are-women-getting-screwed-on-the-golf-course
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Nobody has suggested this is wholly about length, the SSS takes into account those other factors.
Sounds to me that you don't or don't wish to understand how the handicaps system works to make it fare, as far as it is possible, for everyone. Best you stick to scratch events.
louise_a
Money List Winner
It is an interesting read, although I think the logic is flawed, an average golfer isn't expected to be able to reach every green in regulation are they? That's why we have a handicapping system, and I think a course of only 4200yds is rather too short.
Capella
Journeyman Pro
Very good article. I read something similar in a Swiss golf magazine a while ago. To be fair: the courses I have played in the UK so far (which weren't that many and they probably weren't the hardest ones available) seemed to be a bit more generous towards the female players than what I am used to from courses in Germany. Not only were the ladie's tees placed so that they took many hazards out of the game (something I would not neccessarily want, to be honest), but also very often holes that played as par 4 for the gents were par 5s for the ladies, so that quite a few times I played a par 75 course, where the guys play to par 72. It really makes the game feel very different and I can understand that men might think they are at a disadvantage (even though they still probably aren't and as has been stated repeatedly: handicaps should adapt according to that, so it is not an issue and scores are still comparable)
German courses handle this differently. We normally have ladies tees which make the course shorter, but, as I mentioned, they try to place them so that the hole plays as similar to the men's as possible, par and stroke indices remain the same for both men and women. My home course for example plays 6569 yards off the yellows (which are used as competition tees for the men over the year, except for the club championship, when they go back to the whites at 6762 yards). It plays 5719 yards off the reds, so about 850 yards shorter. But in both cases as a par 72.
