"Woman" wins cycling gold

[drdel]

Biological men against biological women is not sport.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Remember Bobby Riggs v Billy-Jean King match?

FWIW, Serena Williams's power game has elevated the Women's game significantly - certainly from the tedious battles of attrition of yesteryear (many of whom are now commentators!). The new female stars are 'power players' - at least insofar as their height allows!

But they'd all likely lose the majority of matches against any male in the top 100 - no different to what it was when that 'Battle of the Sexes' took place in the '70s!

Forget the Bobby Riggs game, too many restrictions on it. Google Serena Williams v Karsten Braasch. He was 203 in the world and won easily. I think his conclusion was she would only start to beat someone from 500 and above.

 

[nickjdavis]

The other way round, I'm not sure. A woman transitioning to a man would require steroids I would have thought, but perhaps not when a man is transitioning to a woman. In the article they do mention that this person has to pass a test of being below a certain level of testosterone or something like that. She says that this level of testosterone is even lower than the level that naturally occurs in women.

A man transitioning to a woman (and intending to go the whole way for want of a better phrase) will undergo a series of hormone treatments that actually negate/reverse the natural physical advantages that being born a male might bestow.

I specifically asked this question a couple of years ago of a friend of mine who was making said "journey" and the question of transgender athletes came up in our discussions.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Next forum meet I'm off the reds, any complaints and I shall be offended 🤔

I foresee an 18 shot improvement Chris; normally takes you one shot a hole to get to the reds 👍😉

 

[chrisd]

I foresee an 18 shot improvement Chris; normally takes you one shot a hole to get to the reds 👍😉

So my handicap would drop to +5 👍👍

 

[Foxholer]

Forget the Bobby Riggs game, too many restrictions on it. Google Serena Williams v Karsten Braasch. He was 203 in the world and won easily. I think his conclusion was she would only start to beat someone from 500 and above.

Braasch was a bit of a wierdo, but did (sort of) demonstrate the huge difference in quality between the male and female game! From memory, he beat both Williams sisters, quite easily but long before they became dominant, when ranked about 200! I doubt whether he'd be able to repeat that feat now!

He's more notable - to me - for coming from the same town as my Great Grandfather!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Braasch was a bit of a wierdo, but did (sort of) demonstrate the huge difference in quality between the male and female game! From memory, he beat both Williams sisters, quite easily but long before they became dominant, when ranked about 200! I doubt whether he'd be able to repeat that feat now!

He's more notable - to me - for coming from the same town as my Great Grandfather!

You are right, he did beat both very comfortably. I don't know what age he is now but I'm sure his equivalent would do the same. I suspect it may be worse now. Both sisters are pretty immobile and the fact that serena can still reach finals says a great deal about the strength of the women's game currently. To be fair, both sisters are past their prime, time catches up with everyone, so it would be a daft thing to recreate.

 

[Foxholer]

...I don't know what age he is now...

Mid fifties? Similar age to Riggs when he got stuffed by B-J K!

Btw. Riggs was (once) a seriously good (great even) player! Though not as great as Bill Tilden, whose sexuality meant his feats were ignored/hidden! Oh how times have changed!

 

[Dibby]

A man transitioning to a woman (and intending to go the whole way for want of a better phrase) will undergo a series of hormone treatments that actually negate/reverse the natural physical advantages that being born a male might bestow.

I specifically asked this question a couple of years ago of a friend of mine who was making said "journey" and the question of transgender athletes came up in our discussions.

That's simply not true. It negates some of the advantages, not all of them - it's doesn't undo the mental and neurological advantage of having been stronger before, surgery generally doesn't alter bone structure like that of the hip girdle and shoulder girdle width, just to name a few.

As a really basic exercise, just consider a man who is average height (bang on 50th percentile), if he transitions, will his height be reduced to that of a 50th percentile woman?

 

[Slime]

That's simply not true. It negates some of the advantages, not all of them - it's doesn't undo the mental and neurological advantage of having been stronger before, surgery generally doesn't alter bone structure like that of the hip girdle and shoulder girdle width, just to name a few.

As a really basic exercise, just consider a man who is average height (bang on 50th percentile), if he transitions, will his height be reduced to that of a 50th percentile woman?

Just say average, we're not all scientists.

 

[HughJars]

Just say average, we're not all scientists.

You mean *mean*, because the 50th percentile is not necessarily also the average.

 

[louise_a]

When I first joined this forum and asked for advice about how I ought to go about joining a ladies section at a golf club being transgendered, the support and advice was nearly all positive. It is rather sad reading the comments on this thread.

 

[drdel]

When I first joined this forum and asked for advice about how I ought to go about joining a ladies section at a golf club being transgendered, the support and advice was nearly all positive. It is rather sad reading the comments on this thread.

I don't think you should personalise generalised comments and opinions made about what seems to many as an inequality in sport caused by ignoring biology.

 

[louise_a]

The subject of the discussion is one thing, I don't have a problem with that, but how can I not take comments like claiming to be a woman personally even when it was aimed at someone else.

 

[HughJars]

The subject of the discussion is one thing, I don't have a problem with that, but how can I not take comments like claiming to be a woman personally even when it was aimed at someone else.

I think it's fairly specific Louise, people like Rachael McKinnon - unlike you - are not "transwomen", they are men posing as women but with all the male accouterments and no intention of transitioning, and defiantly (you should follow him on twitter) claiming he has no advantage, despite having no record of any note as a male athlete, having far from a cyclist's physique, indeed he's overweight, but making a mockery of women's cycling by dying his hair purple.

As a golfer maybe i'm over-attuned to the principle of fair play, "rachael" makes a mockery of that, and doesn't care.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think it's fairly specific Louise, people like Rachael McKinnon - unlike you - are not "transwomen", they are men posing as women but with all the male accouterments and no intention of transitioning, and defiantly (you should follow him on twitter) claiming he has no advantage, despite having no record of any note as a male athlete, having far from a cyclist's physique, indeed he's overweight, but making a mockery of women's cycling by dying his hair purple.

As a golfer maybe i'm over-attuned to the principle of fair play, "rachael" makes a mockery of that, and doesn't care.

I was led to believe that Rachel McKinnon has transitioned to a women ? She can’t be competing in female sports if she is still biologically a man - she isn’t a man “posing” as a women and any transgender person can only play within the relevant sport if they have fully transitioned.

 

[HughJars]

I was led to believe that Rachel McKinnon has transitioned to a women ? She can’t be competing in female sports if she is still biologically a man - she isn’t a man “posing” as a women and any transgender person can only play within the relevant sport if they have fully transitioned.

Nope, taken drugs, but it's all still there. There are however many papers written by Rachael Mckinnon on why Rachael McKinnon is not a cheat and Rachael McKinnon gains no advantage over women by the scientific studies (by Rachael mcKinnon) proving so.

 

[Orikoru]

I was led to believe that Rachel McKinnon has transitioned to a women ? She can’t be competing in female sports if she is still biologically a man - she isn’t a man “posing” as a women and any transgender person can only play within the relevant sport if they have fully transitioned.

My God - I thought the same as you, but having done a bit more research (aka Googling), it appears he's right. She has not even undergone the full reassignment surgery. I'm actually lost for words.

 

[HughJars]

My God - I thought the same as you, but having done a bit more research (aka Googling), it appears he's right. She has not even undergone the full reassignment surgery. I'm actually lost for words.

It's why Navratilova & Sharon Davis (amongst others) have given him such a hard time on twitter about his cheating. Totally unapologetic.

 

[louise_a]

in the UK, you do not need to have undergone reassignment surgery to get a Gender recognition certificate (which lets you change your birth certificate) I do not know the law on this on other countries.
I was not aware of Rachel MacKinnon and so didn't know anything about her, but I can certainly see why people have problems with her competing under the circumstances.