"Woman" wins cycling gold

[Bunkermagnet]

The problem is, RM has done more harm than good to those looking to transition and compete...whether you agree with them or not.

 

[louise_a]

The problem is, RM has done more harm than good to those looking to transition and compete...whether you agree with them or not.

I have just seen that the IOC rules on TG athletes competing in women's events, and they allow a testosterone level of below 10nmol/l. I have had full GRS and my testosterone level is pretty much zero. The rules do appear to need tightening.

 

[Dibby]

I have just seen that the IOC rules on TG athletes competing in women's events, and they allow a testosterone level of below 10nmol/l. I have had full GRS and my testosterone level is pretty much zero. The rules do appear to need tightening.

The IOC levels need some serious work, effectively the current rule is that trans athletes can "dope" right up to the accepted limits, but cisgender athletes can't do this.

Serious questions, in case you think I am just trolling.

How do you account for things that are not modified through transition, like height, bone structure etc?
I think it's accepted that a male to female athlete will have far more success than a female to male athlete ever would. How can this be equated to fairness if one identity has a clear advantage?

 

[louise_a]

The IOC levels need some serious work, effectively the current rule is that trans athletes can "dope" right up to the accepted limits, but cisgender athletes can't do this.

Serious questions, in case you think I am just trolling.

How do you account for things that are not modified through transition, like height, bone structure etc?
I think it's accepted that a male to female athlete will have far more success than a female to male athlete ever would. How can this be equated to fairness if one identity has a clear advantage?

I am not sure how height and bone structure particularly affect performance in sport, I know that muscle mass changes as does fat distribution. Personally I was never sporty and had a slim physique. Golf wise I have a decent swing but my distances are way shorter than men of similar handicaps, anything over 125yds and i need a wood.

 

[Dibby]

I am not sure how height and bone structure particularly affect performance in sport, I know that muscle mass changes as does fat distribution. Personally I was never sporty and had a slim physique. Golf wise I have a decent swing but my distances are way shorter than men of similar handicaps, anything over 125yds and i need a wood.

They are massively important. For an easy example, look at a basketball team. You will notice there is a physique that is very common, sure there are always the odd outliers, but in general, different sports favour certain physiques.

In this case which is cycling, as a single example, men generally have narrower hips, this makes it so the hip joint is more aligned vertically above the pedal and makes it easier to transfer force.

I think the golf example is a difficult comparison because unless you have the exact same technique, it is very hard to compare your distances against other men and women.

 

[patricks148]

They are massively important. For an easy example, look at a basketball team etc... You will notice there is a physique that is very common, sure there are always the odd outliers, but in general, different sports favour certain physiques.

In this case which is cycling, as a single example, men generally have narrower hips, this makes it so the hip joint is more aligned vertically above the pedal and makes it easier to transfer force.

I think the golf example is a difficult comparison because unless you have the exact same technique, it is very hard to compare your distances against other men and women.

Plus the event they take part in is the Sprint on the track, where Muscle mass and size are all important, something a man would have a big advantage over a woman... what next... Boxing?

 

[Orikoru]

Plus the event they take part in is the Sprint on the track, where Muscle mass and size are all important, something a man would have a big advantage over a woman... what next... Boxing?

You're a bit late to the party with that one...

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

Honestly, we live in a world where not offending people trumps common sense and personal safety.

 

[Dan2501]

Plus the event they take part in is the Sprint on the track, where Muscle mass and size are all important, something a man would have a big advantage over a woman... what next... Boxing?

Nah, MMA, and that's already happened in the case of Fallon Fox. Won her first 4 fights via finish before running into a woman that could actually fight and lost. But after that she absolutely wrecked Tamikka Brents in the 1st round. This is what Brents had to say after the fight:

After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."

I have no issues whatsoever with people identifying as a different gender to the one they were born as, but if a man transitions to a woman in their 30s and then after that begins fighting women, that is where things are just going too far. It's becoming more and more obvious that trans athletes can have massive advantages in their sport post-transition and it isn't a level playing field.

 

[AmandaJR]

I have just seen that the IOC rules on TG athletes competing in women's events, and they allow a testosterone level of below 10nmol/l. I have had full GRS and my testosterone level is pretty much zero. The rules do appear to need tightening.

Louise - if this is too personal a question then don't worry and don't answer! We have two transgender women at our club and both have gone through full GRS. Talking to one a while back and she was saying about a drug or something she takes to avoid her body producing testosterone (adrenal glands going into overdrive - I think?). Having transitioned she said the worst thing would be to have testosterone and all that brings. If that is the case then is it fair to say the female athletes who have had full GRS are taking/allowing testosterone production for the benefits it can bring?

 

[patricks148]

You're a bit late to the party with that one...

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

Honestly, we live in a world where not offending people trumps common sense and personal safety.

who's have thought, why would they allow this??

 

[USER1999]

who's have thought, why would they allow this??

Because he is a woman.

 

[patricks148]

Because he is a woman.

Lol of course... silly me

 

[Dibby]

Louise - if this is too personal a question then don't worry and don't answer! We have two transgender women at our club and both have gone through full GRS. Talking to one a while back and she was saying about a drug or something she takes to avoid her body producing testosterone (adrenal glands going into overdrive - I think?). Having transitioned she said the worst thing would be to have testosterone and all that brings. If that is the case then is it fair to say the female athletes who have had full GRS are taking/allowing testosterone production for the benefits it can bring?

So the question wasn't addressed at me, but maybe this will at least cover some of what you are asking. For male to female transgender athletes, the IOC says that their testosterone has to be below 10 nmol/l. In a CIS female the average level would be 0.3-2.4 nmol/l (as a reference for males this would be roughly 9-32 nmol/l). In a trans female living her normal life, she would want to keep the testosterone low, to avoid male characteristics, such as secondary body hair growth etc...

The problem is the rule sets the limit very high compared to the average CIS female range, so a trans female athlete may suppress her level to within the rules, but still be way above that of her competitors. From a female lifestyle perspective, this may not be ideal, but from a sporting performance perspective, it is potentially advantageous. Whether the trans athlete prioritises sports performance over lifestyle, only the athlete themselves can answer. The crux of the issue is that trans athletes are likely to have a baseline testosterone over the limit set, so if more focused on sports performance will just suppress to the legal limit, whereas a CIS female if below the limit cannot take synthetic testosterone to boost her level to the limit, because it is a banned substance. The water is then further muddied when you have the outlier CIS female athletes that have very high testosterone levels naturally.

Whatever decision the IOC takes it's a bit of a tightrope, you don't suppress levels enough and people complain it's unfair to trans athletes, you force them to be suppressed low and people will complain the playing field is purposefully biased to disadvantage and discriminate trans athletes.

 

[louise_a]

Louise - if this is too personal a question then don't worry and don't answer! We have two transgender women at our club and both have gone through full GRS. Talking to one a while back and she was saying about a drug or something she takes to avoid her body producing testosterone (adrenal glands going into overdrive - I think?). Having transitioned she said the worst thing would be to have testosterone and all that brings. If that is the case then is it fair to say the female athletes who have had full GRS are taking/allowing testosterone production for the benefits it can bring?

Amanda, when you begin transitioning you are giving Oestrogen, this inhibits the production of testosterone, this is what I had through the NHS, there is another drug that also has a similar effect that I know girls who went private also go. Once you have GRS you produce little or no testosterone, my levels are barely recordable, I do still take a low dosage of Oestrogen.
I am surprised that one of the women at your place still has to take T blockers after GRS.
I appreciate that allowing Trans athletes to compete in elite sport is a minefield, but if you allow them to compete in one sport you cannot prohibit them competing in other.

 

[drdel]

Amanda, when you begin transitioning you are giving Oestrogen, this inhibits the production of testosterone, this is what I had through the NHS, there is another drug that also has a similar effect that I know girls who went private also go. Once you have GRS you produce little or no testosterone, my levels are barely recordable, I do still take a low dosage of Oestrogen.
I am surprised that one of the women at your place still has to take T blockers after GRS.
I appreciate that allowing Trans athletes to compete in elite sport is a minefield, but if you allow them to compete in one sport you cannot prohibit them competing in other.

But the skeletons and musculature will be different giving different advantages in different circumstances.

 

[AmandaJR]

Amanda, when you begin transitioning you are giving Oestrogen, this inhibits the production of testosterone, this is what I had through the NHS, there is another drug that also has a similar effect that I know girls who went private also go. Once you have GRS you produce little or no testosterone, my levels are barely recordable, I do still take a low dosage of Oestrogen.
I am surprised that one of the women at your place still has to take T blockers after GRS.
I appreciate that allowing Trans athletes to compete in elite sport is a minefield, but if you allow them to compete in one sport you cannot prohibit them competing in other.

Thanks Louise. The woman I was referrring too also wears an HRT Osetrogen patch/or uses the gel...I'm wondering now if she has fully transitioned.

 

[AmandaJR]

So the question wasn't addressed at me, but maybe this will at least cover some of what you are asking. For male to female transgender athletes, the IOC says that their testosterone has to be below 10 nmol/l. In a CIS female the average level would be 0.3-2.4 nmol/l (as a reference for males this would be roughly 9-32 nmol/l). In a trans female living her normal life, she would want to keep the testosterone low, to avoid male characteristics, such as secondary body hair growth etc...

The problem is the rule sets the limit very high compared to the average CIS female range, so a trans female athlete may suppress her level to within the rules, but still be way above that of her competitors. From a female lifestyle perspective, this may not be ideal, but from a sporting performance perspective, it is potentially advantageous. Whether the trans athlete prioritises sports performance over lifestyle, only the athlete themselves can answer. The crux of the issue is that trans athletes are likely to have a baseline testosterone over the limit set, so if more focused on sports performance will just suppress to the legal limit, whereas a CIS female if below the limit cannot take synthetic testosterone to boost her level to the limit, because it is a banned substance. The water is then further muddied when you have the outlier CIS female athletes that have very high testosterone levels naturally.

Whatever decision the IOC takes it's a bit of a tightrope, you don't suppress levels enough and people complain it's unfair to trans athletes, you force them to be suppressed low and people will complain the playing field is purposefully biased to disadvantage and discriminate trans athletes.

Thanks for the detailed reply. That is very interesting and does highlight what a minefield it is. From what Louise has said though why would a trans athlete have a level over the legal limit without a natural way to produce to those levels?

 

[Dibby]

Thanks for the detailed reply. That is very interesting and does highlight what a minefield it is. From what Louise has said though why would a trans athlete have a level over the legal limit without a natural way to produce to those levels?

So this is where it gets pretty murky if a trans athlete is suppressing their levels down because they want to be as feminine as possible they would likely go way below the limit as described by Louise, and also likely not stand out or make the news with their performances. If the trans athlete is a bit more cynical and more interested in winning at their chosen sport rather than being as feminine as possible, they will suppress their testosterone levels to the limit number and no further. If you are asking how, most likely through a combination of reducing testosterone blocker dosage, and taking less oestrogen.

The problem is more the limit than anything else, but it's a challenge, because push it too low, then do you disqualify CIS females who just happen to be genetic freaks and have high testosterone? Keep it high and trans athletes have an advantage because the cynical ones will perfectly hit the limit and go no lower.

Trans athletes are general big news story generators, but are really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to biological science in sport. From things the public somewhat know about, such as outright banned PEDs and failed drug tests, to things the public don't even think about like women using contraceptives to adjust hormone levels, or genetic engineering - do we know for sure we don't have any purposely bred test tube athletes, and if we don't now, how long before we do, and what is the ethical take on this?