"Woman" wins cycling gold

[Orikoru]

I'm sure someone will throw the cat among the pigeons soon, but so far it's odd to see a thread on this forum where we're all in agreement...

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Why though, as my reading of the feminist arguement is that the transgenders arent female and dont see them as female.

Personally I dont think its right that someone born of one sex can change to compete physically against another sex. There should be a transgender category for them. Either that or scrap the bans on drugs and let everyone cheat.

I agree with you on the competing front, it makes no sense to me either...... but then there shouldnt be a transgender category either, because surely they either fall under male or female.

As for the theory behind feminism.... these days the "feminine" part of the word is neither here no there, it is to do with equality (so I'm lead to believe from debates I've seen), hence why I'd like to see those that argue in favour of eqality debate this point as I cant work out which way they'd be swayed.

There is big uproar but also confusion in how to deal with it.

No trolling in your post, it is a very genuine question.

thats exactly my thinking and why I'd like to hear it debated by those in those circles. I'm struggling to comprehend how the same people could argue that someone is female (despite being born a man) and then have issue with them competing against other females.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I think we're belittling the gender reassignment process to suggest someone would do this. It's not as simple as whipping off your todger and putting lady parts in it's place.

I'm certainly not belittling gender reassignment, that is a major, major thing. We are currently in an era of self identification however, no surgery required.

I also do believe that even men who have had gender reassignment should still not be able to compete in womens sport, operation or not. Go back to point 1 of Lilyhawks post.

 

[patricks148]

I agree with you on the competing front, it makes no sense to me either...... but then there shouldnt be a transgender category either, because surely they either fall under male or female.

As for the theory behind feminism.... these days the "feminine" part of the word is neither here no there, it is to do with equality (so I'm lead to believe from debates I've seen), hence why I'd like to see those that argue in favour of eqality debate this point as I cant work out which way they'd be swayed.



thats exactly my thinking and why I'd like to hear it debated by those in those circles. I'm struggling to comprehend how the same people could argue that someone is female (despite being born a man) and then have issue with them competing against other females.

There is a bit of a disagreement in feminist circles at the moment of Gender identity. My wife went to a recent conference and the topic really kicked off esp about Female changing rooms and what it means to be a woman not just the sexual organs.

 

[Orikoru]

I'm certainly not belittling gender reassignment, that is a major, major thing. We are currently in an era of self identification however, no surgery required.

I also do believe that even men who have had gender reassignment should still not be able to compete in womens sport, operation or not. Go back to point 1 of Lilyhawks post.

Oh I see what you mean. But surely someone who simply claims they are woman wouldn't be allowed to compete?? What we're discussing regarding those who have had the op is at least debateable, but that would be utter madness.

I agree with you on the competing front, it makes no sense to me either...... but then there shouldnt be a transgender category either, because surely they either fall under male or female.

As for the theory behind feminism.... these days the "feminine" part of the word is neither here no there, it is to do with equality (so I'm lead to believe from debates I've seen), hence why I'd like to see those that argue in favour of eqality debate this point as I cant work out which way they'd be swayed.

Think of it the other way around though. A female-born athlete who has transitioned to become a man shouldn't be competing with other female-born athletes either because they would be receiving testosterone and other hormones that could give them an advantage there. So for that reason perhaps there should be a separate event for transgender athletes.

 

[Slab]

Oh I see what you mean. But surely someone who simply claims they are woman wouldn't be allowed to compete?? What we're discussing regarding those who have had the op is at least debateable, but that would be utter madness.
.

I'll happily admit I'm not up to speed with all the terminology people want/need to describe themselves but reading the article it reads to me that this cyclist only identifies as a woman despite physically being a man

 

[Orikoru]

I'll happily admit I'm not up to speed with all the terminology people want/need to describe themselves but reading the article it reads to me that this cyclist only identifies as a woman despite physically being a man

Scientifically speaking there is no difference. Physically is all that matters here as we are talking about competitive sport.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Think of it the other way around though. A female-born athlete who has transitioned to become a man shouldn't be competing with other female-born athletes either because they would be receiving testosterone and other hormones that could give them an advantage there. So for that reason perhaps there should be a separate event for transgender athletes.

very good point. I wonder in the world of professional sports whether the drugs taken to transition fall under the banned substances list.

 

[Orikoru]

very good point. I wonder in the world of professional sports whether the drugs taken to transition fall under the banned substances list.

I'm sure in that case they would do because it would include steroids wouldn't it?

 

[Deleted member 18121]

I'm sure in that case they would do because it would include steroids wouldn't it?

I would have assumed so, so I wonder how the person in question has passed mandatory drug testing in the female division.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

very good point. I wonder in the world of professional sports whether the drugs taken to transition fall under the banned substances list.

Think thats part of the Caster Semenya arguement, in that her levels of testosterone for a female are too high. The arguement then being is it naturally high or artificially high.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Relatively simple for me, we now need 4 classes at these events; male, female, transgender female to male, transgender male to female. Everyone is then on an even playing field. If Dr. MacKinnon is clever enough to have a PhD, she’s clever enough to know that she has a significant advantage as a result of her gender change. That’s her choice and her right, but her fellow competitors have a right to a fair chance. They currently don’t in my opinion.

 

[Orikoru]

I would have assumed so, so I wonder how the person in question has passed mandatory drug testing in the female division.

The other way round, I'm not sure. A woman transitioning to a man would require steroids I would have thought, but perhaps not when a man is transitioning to a woman. In the article they do mention that this person has to pass a test of being below a certain level of testosterone or something like that. She says that this level of testosterone is even lower than the level that naturally occurs in women.

 

[User20205]

its all a bit of a nonsense to me, but I’ll happily admit to knowing nothing on the subject. People can identify to who they want to be, but competing against biological women gives this person an advantage. Sporting bodies need to legislate but are they scared about falling foul of anti discrimination law?? PC gone mad 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Slab]

Scientifically speaking there is no difference. Physically is all that matters here as we are talking about competitive sport.

Sorry I was replying to your point that someone who simply claims to be a women wouldn't be allowed to compete. As far as I can see that's pretty much exactly what has happened in this case

 

[Orikoru]

Think thats part of the Caster Semenya arguement, in that her levels of testosterone for a female are too high. The arguement then being is it naturally high or artificially high.

She's not a transgender though is she? Just born female but has unusually high level of testosterone? Not much they can do about that, just lucky for her I guess.

 

[Orikoru]

Sorry I was replying to your point that someone who simply claims to be a women wouldn't be allowed to compete. As far as I can see that's pretty much exactly what has happened in this case

Oh, I didn't think so. I thought she had had the operation. If not then I think it's absolutely scandalous. If you open the doors to that then ten years down the line the female athletics finals will have zero actual females in it.

 

[USER1999]

She's not a transgender though is she? Just born female but has unusually high level of testosterone? Not much they can do about that, just lucky for her I guess.

My understanding is she had undescended testes, as well as female bits and bobs. So neither one thing or the other really.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

She's not a transgender though is she? Just born female but has unusually high level of testosterone? Not much they can do about that, just lucky for her I guess.

But she has male "attributes" was my understanding. There is also a preset limit the drugs bodies have put down as a legal limit of testosterone in a female to try and stop the drugs cheats, and I understand she exceeds that limit.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Relatively simple for me, we now need 4 classes at these events; male, female, transgender female to male, transgender male to female. Everyone is then on an even playing field. If Dr. MacKinnon is clever enough to have a PhD, she’s clever enough to know that she has a significant advantage as a result of her gender change. That’s her choice and her right, but her fellow competitors have a right to a fair chance. They currently don’t in my opinion.

EDIT: My bad, her PhD is in philosophy and not gender studies, even though I'd assume that she has a fair share of points in that field as well.

It's a PhD in gender studies though I might add, so...

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_roo...-contruct-sokal-style-hoax-on-gender-studies/

It's quite a read, and I'm sure you'll find it, erm, interesting.