Winter matchplay unfairness for low handicappers

backwoodsman said:
Am afraid I still don't accept it being down to a shortened course favouring the high player. High(er) handicaps are not just down to how far a player can hit the ball. Those who have higher handicaps tend to hit many more hooks, slices, thins, duffs etc than do low handicappers. If a high handicapper can play more conservatively on a shorter course, then so too can the low handicapper, and presumably with much greater accuracy/benefit?
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most of a golfers scoring ability comes from how good they are from The tee.

Par 4s that we’re not previously reachable in 2 (or even par5s) are now reachable by higher handicappers.

Par 3s that required a long iron, now require a mid iron.

Trust me it makes a huge difference
 
MendieGK said:
What. Ridiculous statement
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Sorry? Why would I want to play a course that’s essentially was only open properly for six months of the year, why would I not expect and want to play qualifiers for 12 months a year, and sod playing off mats.

Expect and demand more - golf clubs (mostly blindly led of greenkeepers) don’t push themselves enough to produce the best product they can for as long a period of the year. To easy to say it’s the 1st Oct now so let’s stop until March.
 
Twissy22 said:
Yeah I get that, when they are on you have no chance.

Im not sour. I have no problem with handicapping system. What do you mean when things are not in my favour? You mean when it's just normal golf on normal course ie fair contest. That's what handicap is for to even things out. Shortening the course is not evening things out it's swinging it in higher handicappers favour, at our course that's why no low handicappers enter winter league. My question was not about whether it's fair or not. It's a fact it's not fair on low handicappers at our course when shortened. My question was what other courses do to address this. My mates a massive bandit off 11 and he lost 6 and 5 against 16 and 18 handicappers today.he said he played well too.
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This crops up all over the place from time to time.

The critical factors aren't the underlying handicaps; it's the handicap basis of those playing that course for most of their Q events.

There will be some higher handicaps that can hit the ball a long way but are inconsistent - generally these will represent the same dynamic in a match over the shorter course.

There will be some high handicappers who simply cannot reach various elements on that course, in normal conditions. Their handicap reflects this if it's based on their scores on that course. When that course is reduced in length in the manner outlined they will be disproportionalty advantaged. It happens. They will also appear to be a bandit when visiting shorter courses in the summer (generally unless these courses have significant protection at the front of all their greens). If they visit for open events they will win a few, have their handicap cut, and be unable to play close to it when they return to their own long course....after which they will post here about the inequity of Q events away from home.

Such is handicapping.
 
Hobbit said:
Using the example you posted earlier, "450yds reduced to 300yds."

The low handicapper is unlikely to birdie the 450yd hole, and if he does he almost always wins the hole. On the 300yd hole the low handicapper stands a far better chance of a birdie, and getting one will win the hole occasionally but will almost alway guarantee at least a half.

But do the usual 300yd par 4's reduce to long par 3's? No they won't. They'll reduce down and give the low handicapper even more chances of birdies. And with the best will in the world its rare to see a high handicapper posting 3 or 4 birdies.

If the 5 handicapper plays off 4, and has a good game he'll be somewhere around level par. The 20 handicapper plays off 18, and has to play to 14 for a half. He has to play to 6 under handicap to get a half.

I've been there. I've given lots of shots on a short course, and if I was on my game I've won more than I've lost. Its not just about hitting good shots, its about putting the pressure on the high handicapper and seeing if they've got the balls for the battle. I could probably count on the fingers of one foot the amount of times I've been turned over - it just doesn't happen that often.

Sorry but it just comes across as sour grapes.
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Results at our course show higher handicappers win nearly all matches on shortened course. It's fact. It doesn't work anything like your examples, your talking nonsense.
 
Homer said:
Sorry? Why would I want to play a course that’s essentially was only open properly for six months of the year, why would I not expect and want to play qualifiers for 12 months a year, and sod playing off mats.

Expect and demand more - golf clubs (mostly blindly led of greenkeepers) don’t push themselves enough to produce the best product they can for as long a period of the year. To easy to say it’s the 1st Oct now so let’s stop until March.
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Well it all depends on where you live? Clearly if you live by a links course this isn’t an issue. But measure like this are what makes some courses considerably better in the summer
 
Homer said:
Nothing like that at the courses I play. Full length despite some course works - just play around, over or through it!

Go find a better alternative would be my take.
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Why would I need to find a better alternative ? Have no probs with the course being protected during the winter due to lack of growth. Any course I have played will at some stage be shorter to help protect at least the tee - every single greenkeeper - if they don’t then tees and areas will be a mess and that includes Links courses- the climate of the UK determines that
 
Hobbit said:
Using the example you posted earlier, "450yds reduced to 300yds."

The low handicapper is unlikely to birdie the 450yd hole, and if he does he almost always wins the hole. On the 300yd hole the low handicapper stands a far better chance of a birdie, and getting one will win the hole occasionally but will almost alway guarantee at least a half.

But do the usual 300yd par 4's reduce to long par 3's? No they won't. They'll reduce down and give the low handicapper even more chances of birdies. And with the best will in the world its rare to see a high handicapper posting 3 or 4 birdies.

If the 5 handicapper plays off 4, and has a good game he'll be somewhere around level par. The 20 handicapper plays off 18, and has to play to 14 for a half. He has to play to 6 under handicap to get a half.

I've been there. I've given lots of shots on a short course, and if I was on my game I've won more than I've lost. Its not just about hitting good shots, its about putting the pressure on the high handicapper and seeing if they've got the balls for the battle. I could probably count on the fingers of one foot the amount of times I've been turned over - it just doesn't happen that often.

Sorry but it just comes across as sour grapes.
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a high handicapper will par a 300yd par 4 way more often than a low handicapper will birdie it. Meaning they’ll win the hole.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Why would I need to find a better alternative ? Have no probs with the course being protected during the winter due to lack of growth. Any course I have played will at some stage be shorter to help protect at least the tee - every single greenkeeper - if they don’t then tees and areas will be a mess
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It’s been the best winter for years - grass is growing all over the place but it’s ok as ‘this is what we always do’ so we’ll not try and make it as best we can for golfers. Don’t accept mediocrity - I’m sorry but it’s too easy to say ‘we are trying to protect the course’.
 
I don’t think it’s an issue generally.....but if we’re on temps it’s can be an issue on 2 holes in particular x1 par 5 shortened to 300 yards and a 200 yard par 3 shortened to 120 yards. Typically giving shots on both. There is an argument for a winter scorecard. I also reckon there’s no skill in putting in the winter
But more often than not it’s a high/low combo that wins our winter league.
Best not forget it’s only a Mickey Mouse winter comp tho.
 
Twissy22 said:
Results at our course show higher handicappers win nearly all matches on shortened course. It's fact. It doesn't work anything like your examples, your talking nonsense.
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Talking nonsense with 40+ years of Cat 1 behind me, and 50+ years of playing. Yeah, of course I am...:rolleyes:
 
therod said:
I don’t think it’s an issue generally.....but if we’re in temps it’s can be an issue on 2 holes in particular x1 par 5 shortened to 300 yards and a 200 yard par 3 shortened to 120 yards. Typically giving shots on both. There is an argument for a winter scorecard. I also reckon there’s no skill in putting in the winter
But more often than not it’s a high/low combo that wins our winter league.
Best not forget it’s only a Mickey Mouse winter comp tho.
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I’d also add I’m not the bothered. It’s something that just happens
 
Homer said:
It’s been the best winter for years - grass is growing all over the place but it’s ok as ‘this is what we always do’ so we’ll not try and make it as best we can for golfers. Don’t accept mediocrity - I’m sorry but it’s too easy to say ‘we are trying to protect the course’.
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Really ? Well apart from the snow closing courses , lack of grass after the very dry summer. And we still need more water - it’s got sweet FA to go with “this is what we always do “ - our greenkeeper reacts to the situation, we pay him for his experience and his skills ( works at ET events around the UK ) - but they do say each golf club has about 300 greenkeepers who always know better
 
MendieGK said:
a high handicapper will par a 300yd par 4 way more often than a low handicapper will birdie it. Meaning they’ll win the hole.
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That's one hole out of 18, ok a few holes out of 18. And how many birdies do you expect to post in a round? How many does a high handicapper post on any given day?

I very much doubt the OP has lost every post Christmas league match for years.
 
Homer said:
It’s been the best winter for years - grass is growing all over the place but it’s ok as ‘this is what we always do’ so we’ll not try and make it as best we can for golfers. Don’t accept mediocrity - I’m sorry but it’s too easy to say ‘we are trying to protect the course’.
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It’s the best winter in years? Are you sure, its not over yet, last year was ruined by a bad, very wet March, course work is planned weeks, months even years in advance, if we get a mild winter then the work will progress nicely, you can’t have the course staff messed around on a week by week basis depending on the weather.
 
"It's the same for everyone"...…. I've heard so many times & must be the most crass statement possible. Lower H/caps need to 2 putt most of the time & this becomes very difficult on bumpy & bobbly winter greens.
In winter there is nothing like having shots in-hand.
To suggest that.... "Well you don't need to join in", hardly helps one's Golf Club to be inclusive. Oh, & the noise in the Club House from the Rabbits whingeing about the low-H/capers wanting a fair chance...… hahaha!!
 
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