Winter course length and temp greens

[bunkerblaster]

Just so!

is 12 yds ok? What about 13 or 14 or 15 ?
is 11 yds ok on two holes, or three or eighteen?

There is a rule of +/- 10yds. It’s simple , there is no discretion.

Near Hull, The question was 1 yard on one hole. I know what I would do.

And your course fully complies? Question: Does your course have an officially rated set of winter tees? Or do you continue to use the grass tees 365 days a year? They must be very worn. Or do you mix and match between grass and winter tees to allow grass tee respite and maintenance? If your course has a rolling program of tee maintenance over the winter months tee locations could change by the week, meaning any authorisation under Appendix G would have to be applied for every week! You might get the go ahead a couple of weeks later! That is a lot of co-ordintation between green staff, the handicap committee and England Golf. Totally unworkable.

 

[rulefan]

Rulefan`s edit in the second post refers to Standard Scratch Score which is obviously pre WHS. So if there is no discretion I would guess the vast majority of clubs putting handicapping rounds in during the winter are breaking the strict rules. And I doubt any have applied for course modifications under Appendix G.

Yes, that was my point. I doubt that EG or CONGU have changed their more relaxed view since WHS despite the comment of an Area Representative. The mind boggles at the administrative cost of having to issue rating certificates for the odd 2 yards on courses where clubs do want to run qualifiers during the winter or when tees are being rested.

 

[D-S]

I wonder how many clubs ‘turn their tees off’ via the WHS portal in winter.
If they don’t just think of all the social scores which are being recorded across the country no non qualifying courses.

 

[DickInShorts]

that’s novel- have you done this in previous years? What was the member’s feedback like?

Been the same for several years now. Bunkers are almost all very firm at all times so when cold they are solid as well as when have been wet.

 

[rulie]

Just so!

is 12 yds ok? What about 13 or 14 or 15 ?
is 11 yds ok on two holes, or three or eighteen?

There is a rule of +/- 10yds. It’s simple , there is no discretion.

Imo, there is room for the Committee to use discretion on each and every hole, up to the total of 100 yards rule.

 

[jim8flog]

Although we had a measured Course Certificate for our winter tees we have now changed our system.

Where we don't have an artificially surfaced tee built we have bought some very large artificial mats (about 2mx2m) and these are placed on the normal tees and get moved regularly to avoid the grass dying.
We also have a local rule that players must stand on the mat and tee off from the mat.

 

[rulefan]

Where we don't have an artificially surfaced tee built we have bought some very large artificial mats (about 2mx2m) and these are placed on the normal tees and get moved regularly to avoid the grass dying.

Do you move them(all) between yellow & whites or is there only one winter qualifying course?
What is done about the ladies' tees?

 

[jim8flog]

Do you move them(all) between yellow & whites or is there only one winter qualifying course?
What is done about the ladies' tees?

As an old fashioned course we have quite small tees and there is not a lot of difference between white/yellow/red lengths on a lot of them

Ladies generally still get to use their own tee (they do not as much wear) where the mat is not appropriately positioned.
The mats are generally used as a combined white/yellow tee.
Quite a few of our tees have long term winter tees with an artificial surface on them. A lot of our grass winter tees were positioned with due regard to hole length ie very similar length just moved left or right of the grass summer tees.

 

[rulefan]

As an old fashioned course we have quite small tees and there is not a lot of difference between white/yellow/red lengths on a lot of them

Ladies generally still get to use their own tee (they do not as much wear) where the mat is not appropriately positioned.
The mats are generally used as a combined white/yellow tee.
Quite a few of our tees have long term winter tees with an artificial surface on them. A lot of our grass winter tees were positioned with due regard to hole length ie very similar length just moved left or right of the grass summer tees.

All seems good but don't mis-measure by 1m

 

[NearHull]

Just received the following bullet points from Yorkshire Golf Union on setting of winter courses.

• The 10 yards Rule permits the ‘tees of the day’ on each hole to be positioned up to (but not more than) 10 yards in front of or behind the ‘permanently affixed tee markers’ for the course being played. The overall ‘measured length’ of the course can be maintained by a combination of forward and backward tee positions.
• The 100 yards Rule takes account of the fact it is not always possible to position the tees of the day in such a way that the overall ‘measured length’ can be maintained precisely. Therefore, an overall difference of up to 100 yards (longer or shorter) in the total length of the course is permitted.
• The 300 yards Rule provides for situations where a necessary shortening or lengthening of one or more holes by a total of more than 100 yards, but less than 300 yards: BUT only on a ‘temporary’ basis e.g., course excavation work / drainage etc. This ‘Temporary Rating’ must be submitted to and approved by England Golf. When provided it will permit ‘acceptable scores’ to continue to be returned. Maximum duration of one year. For such ratings, please use form CR003 obtainable from the England Golf Website and submit the completed form together with the required documents to Course.Rating@englandgolf.org
• Rubber backed/artificial Tee mats can be used: but it is recommended they be placed adjacent to the Permanent Marker, although not necessarily on the prepared teeing area, or within the 10 yards allowance if necessary.

 

[SammmeBee]

Our course becomes non qualifying in winter:
Most tees are mats and forward of measured course
Fairway mats are also allowed in bunkers

Where do you play? The Everglades…..?!?

 

[rulefan]

Significant words from the YUGC via NearHull.

Rubber backed/artificial Tee mats can be used: but it is recommended they be placed adjacent to the Permanent Marker, although not necessarily on the prepared teeing area, or within the 10 yards allowance if necessary.

 

[rulefan]

Rulefan`s edit in the second post refers to Standard Scratch Score which is obviously pre WHS. So if there is no discretion I would guess the vast majority of clubs putting handicapping rounds in during the winter are breaking the strict rules. And I doubt any have applied for course modifications under Appendix G.

England Golf have now confirmed that the same principle applies to CR as it did to SSS.

Thus in instances where a tee(s), does not meet the precise Competition Tee definition, provided that the course is not shortened (or lengthened) overall by more than 100 yards the Competition should remain Qualifying and the allocated Standard Scratch Score Course Rating and Scope will apply.

 

[D-S]

England Golf have now confirmed that the same principle applies to CR as it did to SSS.

Thus in instances where a tee(s), does not meet the precise Competition Tee definition, provided that the course is not shortened (or lengthened) overall by more than 100 yards the Competition should remain Qualifying and the allocated Standard Scratch Score Course Rating and Scope will apply.

So this means that although a tee might not have two club lengths behind it, nevertheless the competition would be qulaifying but if the tee was 11 yards behind the measured blocks the competition would not be qualifyin?

 

[rulefan]

So this means that although a tee might not have two club lengths behind it, nevertheless the competition would be qulaifying but if the tee was 11 yards behind the measured blocks the competition would not be qualifyin?

No. It is saying that a small variation to the 10 yard 'limit' from the measured block would not affect the qualifying status.

 

[D-S]

No. It is saying that a small variation to the 10 yard 'limit' from the measured block would not affect the qualifying status.

So we‘re back to this again. Is there any definition of ‘small’? 1 yard, 2 yards, 10 yards, 25 yards?

 

[rulefan]

So we‘re back to this again. Is there any definition of ‘small’? 1 yard, 2 yards, 10 yards, 25 yards?

We are not 'back' to anything. EG have simply confirmed that the situation is still what it was under CONGU prior to WHS.

Having a fixed allowance would be pointless. If the allowance was 1 yard (say), it would simply mean that 10 yards would become 11 yards in the regulation.

Incidentally, the old regulation does not mention 'small', it simply refers to the definition: which under CONGU was "A Competition Tee is the teeing ground, as defined in the Rules of Golf, the front of which should normally be placed no more than 10 yards (9 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant Distance Point. " The key word appropriate to this topic being "normally". The Committee will determine what it believes to be 'not normal' and act accordingly, as it does when considering any other course condition or situation where it has discretion.

 

[D-S]

So in reality, if a Green keeper (with the acceptance of the committee) puts the markers out in a random mix of say red and white tees, so long as the course total is, for example only 95 yards shorter than the measures yellow course length, although not recommended, this is perfectply acceptable to have as qualifying throughout the winter.

 

[rulefan]

So in reality, if a Green keeper (with the acceptance of the committee) puts the markers out in a random mix of say red and white tees, so long as the course total is, for example only 95 yards shorter than the measures yellow course length, although not recommended, this is perfectply acceptable to have as qualifying throughout the winter.

I haven't suggested that. If you are unhappy about the way a course has been set up in this respect you should raise it with the committee or the county.

But surely you can see why the wording is not specific.

 

[NearHull]

I haven't suggested that. If you are unhappy about the way a course has been set up in this respect you should raise it with the committee or the county.

But surely you can see why the wording is not specific.

that’s where I having trouble, I cannot see why the wording is not specific. For me, 10yds is a finite distance.