Winter course length and temp greens

bunkerblaster

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Assistance please. Will just list for ease of response.
1. To retain measured/qualifying status the course should not in total be + or - 100 yards and each tee position should not be + or - 10 yards from the distance measure. Was there a time (perhaps pre WHS) that the + or - 10 yards was removed and just the 100 yards + or - was the only rule?
2. Two temp greens only allowed for qualifying round. The idea of temp greens is to protect the actual greens, most if not all temp greens are a significant distance from the centre of the greens they are protecting. Lets say two temps, combined lose 60 yards from the measured distance. Question: does the loss of those 60 yards count towards the 100 yards + or - or is the measure in relation to the tee position only?
3. Winter mats, I think most winter teeing mats are more than + or - 10 yds from the distance marker. According the EG strict guidance (+ or - 10 yds) one mat in the wrong place means the course is non compliant. EG are encouraging handicapped rounds through the winter but this does not appear easy to achieve. Question: Any views and do any of your clubs have official measured course off winter mats? This would appear to me to be an all or nothing situation because you would lose the ability to "mix and match" between different grass and artificial tees as conditions might dictate.
 

rulefan

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1)
Assistance please. Will just list for ease of response.
1. To retain measured/qualifying status the course should not in total be + or - 100 yards and each tee position should not be + or - 10 yards from the distance measure. Was there a time (perhaps pre WHS) that the + or - 10 yards was removed and just the 100 yards + or - was the only rule?
2. Two temp greens only allowed for qualifying round. The idea of temp greens is to protect the actual greens, most if not all temp greens are a significant distance from the centre of the greens they are protecting. Lets say two temps, combined lose 60 yards from the measured distance. Question: does the loss of those 60 yards count towards the 100 yards + or - or is the measure in relation to the tee position only?
3. Winter mats, I think most winter teeing mats are more than + or - 10 yds from the distance marker. According the EG strict guidance (+ or - 10 yds) one mat in the wrong place means the course is non compliant. EG are encouraging handicapped rounds through the winter but this does not appear easy to achieve. Question: Any views and do any of your clubs have official measured course off winter mats? This would appear to me to be an all or nothing situation because you would lose the ability to "mix and match" between different grass and artificial tees as conditions might dictate.
1) Where did you get the reference to + or - 10 yards ? It is not here www.englandgolf.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F09%2FWinter-Golf-Checklist-Branded.pdf

Edit: The link doesn't seem to work. Search google or whatever for "Winter Golf Checklist & Reference Guide For Handicap Purposes "

2) Distances are taken from the measured tees.

3) As 1)


Edit 2: CONGU said -
Tee Definition
Clubs should endeavour to maintain their course at its measured length at all times for Qualifying Competitions. However, it is accepted that the placing of tees for competitions will be subject to many influencing factors, particularly the condition of teeing grounds, which may mean on some occasions the precise definition of the Competition Tee cannot be satisfied. This should not, of itself, render the competition Non-Qualifying. Such a tee placement may be regarded as temporary and the provisions of Clause 13.1 would then apply, provided that the ‘Temporary’ tee still meets the requirements of the Rules of Golf. Thus in instances where a tee(s), does not meet the precise Competition Tee definition, provided that the course is not shortened (or lengthened) overall by more than 100 yards the Competition should remain Qualifying and the allocated Standard Scratch Score will apply.
 
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NearHull

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Rulefan, reference here.

Winter Golf Checklist &
Reference Guide – For Handicap
Purposes
Version 2.1 – Updated 25th October 2021
Tee Set & Yardage Compliance
The Rules of Handicapping require that for a score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, it must have been played over a measured and officially rated tee set. The set of tees must be registered on the WHS platform by England Golf. Every golfer should be made aware of the available course/tees for the day on arrival at the first tee; and whoever controls the first tee (Professional etc) should be fully informed.
Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee. In addition, the overall length of the course is not to be +/- 100 yards from its measured length (from the fixed marker). Anything outside of these parameters would invalidate any scores for handicap purposes.
A 300 yards Rule provides for situations where there is a necessary shortening or lengthening of one or more holes by a total of more than 100 yards, but less than 300 yards: BUT only on a ‘temporary’ basis e.g., course excavation work / drainage etc. This ‘Temporary Rating’ must be submitted to, and approved by, England Golf. This will permit ‘acceptable scores’ to continue to be returned. The maximum duration of approval is one year. For such ratings, please use form CR003 obtainable from the England Golf website and submit the completed form together with the required documents to course.rating@englandgolf.org
Clubs and green staff teams are to be made aware of these requirements when setting up a course or tee set.
 

rulefan

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Appendix G of the WHS Rules of Handicapping clarifies that the front of the teeing area should not be placed more than +/- 10 yards from the fixed measurement point on each tee.

That word is key. I think you will find that the approach in the last sentence of the CONGU statement is still the approach but will check.
 
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bunkerblaster

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Looks to me as if Appendix G is the authority. Rules of Handicapping issued under WHS, CONGU and R&A (!!!!!!!) Competing interests making things overly complex as usual. So I am guessing not many golf clubs out there have applied to County (the "authorized association") for permission to shorten their course for handicapping purposes during these very wet winter months where course winter maintenance will feature heavily.
 

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D-S

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So, just for the avoidance of doubt, if you have one tee position 11yards short of the measured marker is the course deemed ‘unqualifying’?
 

bunkerblaster

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Generally in rules-speak, and noted in "How to Use the Rule Book",
"may" is optional
"should" is a recommendation
"must" is obligatory.
The use of "shall" in the Rules of golf disappeared in the 2004 edition of the Rules.

Yes "shall" is/was used in safety legislation as obligatory, so "must" has replaced it in a plain English exercise. So I have established there is some discretion here to extend or decrease the + or - 10 yds from the measured point.
Thanks. Additionally Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping (from WHS, EG, CONGU, R&A uncle Tom Cobley and all) sets out steps to have your course officially credited from County to get you through the winter. Any shortened winter greens WILL count towards the 100 yard maximum reduction.
 

NearHull

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What or how much discretion can we use?

Just so!

is 12 yds ok? What about 13 or 14 or 15 ?
is 11 yds ok on two holes, or three or eighteen?

There is a rule of +/- 10yds. It’s simple , there is no discretion.
 

rulefan

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Just so!

is 12 yds ok? What about 13 or 14 or 15 ?
is 11 yds ok on two holes, or three or eighteen?

There is a rule of +/- 10yds. It’s simple , there is no discretion.
So if there is more than 20 yards between any or all of the red, yellow, white or blue tees and only one matted winter tee, it could be that no tees are eligible at that club.
I wonder how many clubs have all their ladies' and men's tees in close proximity and have separate winter tees when they are not.
 

NearHull

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So if there is more than 20 yards between any or all of the red, yellow, white or blue tees and only one matted winter tee, it could be that no tees are eligible at that club.
I wonder how many clubs have all their ladies' and men's tees in close proximity and have separate winter tees when they are not.
That could be the case. We are keeping one set of tees rated for men and the only set of tees rated for ladies as Qualifying Courses over winter. We will play a limited amount of competitions from those tees to try ease the wear and tear on them. The Whites have been withdrawn and we have given the Head Green Keeper freedom to position the daily yellows where he wishes, again to spread out the damage.
Our nearest neighbour has decided to suspend Acceptable Scores for Handicaps for the winter - I’m unsure how this has been done - I think they declared all courses as non- Qualifying.
Our mats (generally we only use three in winter) are within 10 yds of the Qualifying Courses.
 
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D-S

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So if there is more than 20 yards between any or all of the red, yellow, white or blue tees and only one matted winter tee, it could be that no tees are eligible at that club.
I wonder how many clubs have all their ladies' and men's tees in close proximity and have separate winter tees when they are not.
My guess is that if the 10 yard rule is a 'must' not a 'should', then the vast majority of inland courses will be non qualifying for the entire winter.
 

bunkerblaster

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Rulefan`s edit in the second post refers to Standard Scratch Score which is obviously pre WHS. So if there is no discretion I would guess the vast majority of clubs putting handicapping rounds in during the winter are breaking the strict rules. And I doubt any have applied for course modifications under Appendix G.
 
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