Winning Open score to raise eyebrows!

[Foxholer]

57 & 59 is just a joke, we gave the bird to a guy who shot 51 stable ford points in a charity day, this guy is a cheat nothing short!!!

A little 'harsh' I feel!

I've seen a few examples of banditry in Society golf, but only real example I've seen in 'Club' comps was when a returning 18-capper shot 3 over around Gullane 3 in the morning, then 3 over on Gullane 2 in the afternoon! A non-course owning Club 'guesting' at Gullane btw.

A pair of 51-pointers!

 

[Smiffy]

Cooden is usually 72 against this 67 (probably) so his performance represents about 4 or 5 shots better in total than yours - nothing like 17 shots!

I was adding them up over the course of the two rounds......
And there is a big difference in a 12 handicapper who has been playing for over 25 years shooting two scores like that than a 20 handicapper going even less. I think, anyway.

 

[bobmac]

So some people think that the guy just had a good day and hadn't been protecting his h/cap.
So my question is......
What level of scores would you think is too low for someone just having a 'good day'

 

[patricks148]

So some people think that the guy just had a good day and hadn't been protecting his h/cap.
So my question is......
What level of scores would you think is too low for someone just having a 'good day'

You know what they say, every dog has his day.

The comp i played in on Sat was CSS 74 and a 9 handicap shot a gross 74. Good shooting on a day where a low score was possible. The guys has sruggled to play to 9 all year now he's off 7

 

[jimbob.someroo]

So some people think that the guy just had a good day and hadn't been protecting his h/cap.
So my question is......
What level of scores would you think is too low for someone just having a 'good day'

I think anything below -8 in a medal comp or above 45 points in a stableford.

My reasoning is that I genuinely believe I could shoot a level par round in a comp (as I did in an away comp earlier in the year). I'm off 7 and so doing that would give me a 63 nett. I'm not saying that I will ever manage to do that, but I believe it's within the realms of the possible, despite shooting 80 yesterday. Similarly, a 18 handicap could realistically shoot something like a +11/+12 and I would say it's them having a good day. However, a 18 handicap shooting 76 shouldn't be anywhere close to an 18 in the first place.

If I'd played extremely well and shot 64/65 nett I'd expect somebody to pipe up about banditry but the truth is that I'd have just played well and would expect my handicap to be adjusted accordingly.

 

[Mungoscorner]

I was a fast improving player when i first took the game up.
I went from 19 (first handicap) to 6 in 14 months, i never shot scores anywhere close to those being discussed, my best Stableford score during that time was 43 points.
A couple of years later i had another score of 43 points, i was off 4 at the time and shot a Gross 68, i didn't even make the prize's !!!
If there is one thing that really riles me, it's those golfers who think that 40 points should be the norm, and that playing to their supposed handicap is a bad day !!!
I think the present method for maintaining an active handicap is a joke.

 

[ArnoldArmChewer]

I think anything below -8 in a medal comp or above 45 points in a stableford.

My reasoning is that I genuinely believe I could shoot a level par round in a comp (as I did in an away comp earlier in the year). I'm off 7 and so doing that would give me a 63 nett. I'm not saying that I will ever manage to do that, but I believe it's within the realms of the possible, despite shooting 80 yesterday. Similarly, a 18 handicap could realistically shoot something like a +11/+12 and I would say it's them having a good day. However, a 18 handicap shooting 76 shouldn't be anywhere close to an 18 in the first place.

If I'd played extremely well and shot 64/65 nett I'd expect somebody to pipe up about banditry but the truth is that I'd have just played well and would expect my handicap to be adjusted accordingly.

That's a fair summation. I believe that if the pro's view a 59 as the holy grail then am's should too. Something very very rarely achieved, gross or NETT.

 

[JustOne]

I totally disagree with your assumption that to shoot 45 points is certainly cheating.
Even though my handicap is 7 and I have never shot level par,i believe I am going to
sometime on my home course,that would be 45 points.
Does that mean you think im a cheat ?,knowing you as I do,im sure you would not
think im a cheat.

I agree PJ...

I shot a PB of 4 under par playing off 6 h/cap (46pts),.... it's a lower score than I've ever shot even when I used to play off a 2 h/cap.

Last week I was 16 over for the back 9, go figure!

Golf's just one of those games when people can play out of their skin or totally trash, the only thing being is the person trying somehow to protect their h/cap? Personally I just keep an eye on my own scores and how well/bad I am playing... I couldn't give a stuff about what someone else shoots.... in fact I do like to see GENUINE people who are trying to improve shoot good scores, the lower the better in my opinion (as long as they get cut), after all THAT is the point of the game.

 

[CMAC]

So some people think that the guy just had a good day and hadn't been protecting his h/cap.
So my question is......
What level of scores would you think is too low for someone just having a 'good day'

you cant put a finite figure on it

My friend off 22 (and who is embarrassed to be off 22 as he wants to do well in anything in life, and tries his hardest at golf) went and shot a nett 60 on Saturday, winning by only 1 shot, a PB for the last 2 seasons!!!
..is he a cheat as well??????

sometimes it can all just click!

 

[duncan mackie]

I was adding them up over the course of the two rounds......

so was I !!!!

you played a course 5, possibly 6 shots, per round easier than this score.....

don't even know the conditions you played in, I do know that in this area right now many courses have never, ever, played easier.

 

[ColchesterFC]

you cant put a finite figure on it

My friend off 22 (and who is embarrassed to be off 22 as he wants to do well in anything in life, and tries his hardest at golf) went and shot a nett 60 on Saturday, winning by only 1 shot, a PB for the last 2 seasons!!!
..is he a cheat as well??????

sometimes it can all just click!

I think that anyone could go out and shoot a net score that low on any given day. But I can't accept that someone could do it back to back and still claim their handicap is correct. My personal best off 18 is gross 82 against a par of 70 and I 3 putted 17 and 18 so could/should have been an 80. Since then I haven't come close and am normally around 90 - 94. I'll play to my handicap maybe 1 round in 10 and slightly under it (1 or 2 shots) 1 in 10 as well. The other 8 rounds I'll struggle to get close. The problem is with people that think they should play to or under their handicap every round. That should be the aim but shouldn't happen.

 

[Snelly]

Over 45 points in any Stableford competition is just not cricket and you are off an incorrect handicap. 9 shots better than an accurate handicap is a once in a blue moon score. Or at least it should be.

Two scores back to back as per the OP are just wrong.

I agree with Bob.


I have played at quite a few events in the last couple of years where the winning team come in with a very, very high total and walk away with the prizes which in one case were iPads. In one instance, the total was so high in fact that not only were the handicaps wrong, they also must have cheated when recording scores. When questioned on this, the team captain, as he left the building was heard to say "Cheating? You don't know the half of it." The team in question were subsequently banned from entering this particular event and serious questions were posed to their home clubs. This is not uncommon sadly.

I am now reluctant to enter these events as there are too many bandits that hold artificially high handicaps with the specific aim of doing well in Am-Am events or board competitions. It is very poor and the integrity of golf and the charities involved are the victims.

These days, I would not enter a team event unless it had some form of handicap limit on it. 20 would be about right. I also think the organisers should demand to see current and valid handicap certificates.

 

[OldMate]

I'm sorry but it has to be said......
In my opinion......
A 20 h/cap playing in a big comp and shooting those scores is just ridiculous.
To shoot 45 plus s/ford points is almost certainly cheating, to do it again is cheating.
When I learned my golf, to even get 36 points you had to have a good day. 40 was outstanding.
Too many people today believe they should be able to shoot 36 points most times they go out and it's wrong. IMO

I feel for the 1 h/cap guy.
20 shots behind?
Level playing field my bum.
:rant:

Agree with this completely. I had 45 points in comp once (and that was in 1996). Since then my best would be about 40 and I am generally happy enough with anything over about 32-33.

 

[Foxholer]

Over 45 points in any Stableford competition is just not cricket and you are off an incorrect handicap. 9 shots better than an accurate handicap is a once in a blue moon score. Or at least it should be.

Two scores back to back as per the OP are just wrong.

I agree with Bob.


I have played at quite a few events in the last couple of years where the winning team come in with a very, very high total and walk away with the prizes which in one case were iPads. In one instance, the total was so high in fact that not only were the handicaps wrong, they also must have cheated when recording scores. When questioned on this, the team captain, as he left the building was heard to say "Cheating? You don't know the half of it." The team in question were subsequently banned from entering this particular event and serious questions were posed to their home clubs. This is not uncommon sadly.

I am now reluctant to enter these events as there are too many bandits that hold artificially high handicaps with the specific aim of doing well in Am-Am events or board competitions. It is very poor and the integrity of golf and the charities involved are the victims.

These days, I would not enter a team event unless it had some form of handicap limit on it. 20 would be about right. I also think the organisers should demand to see current and valid handicap certificates.

Raising eyebrows is almost certainly the correct term without knowing the complete facts imo.

I certainly agree about the 'danger' of high-value corporate style prizes.

That handicap limit wouldn't have prevented that guy's scores - as that was what he was off.

You wouldn't actually be able to provide a 'current and valid' cert would you? And what's this '2-4 depending'?

 

[gryffindor]

Just been looking at the Surrey Rookie Tour (14 year old boys) results - most matches are won with 44/45 points. There are a good percentage over 40 points. These guys are very heavily regulated (i.e. handicaps checked with online and certs on arrival etc) - are they cheats? No - they are just guys that work very hard at their golf and therefore have rapidly dropping handicaps.

One lad I know (off 16) has played his last 8 practice rounds at 43/44 points - he has a proper comp today (his first for a month) so I expect he will do well and then get chopped. Perhaps the chap in the OP is the same?

 

[duncan mackie]

So some people think that the guy just had a good day and hadn't been protecting his h/cap.
So my question is......
What level of scores would you think is too low for someone just having a 'good day'

I thought I would just run a quick 'survey' of club cometition scores last weekend to put some perspective on this - I took the first 10 club competitions I clicked on that were played that weekend and came up with the following winning scores (for medal rounds I worked them out from the players card to give the correct stableford - and one club played a par comp so I did it for that too....)

score handicap notes

44 7 -2 gross - included this as I had already referenced it
45 10 with 2 blobs!!!
43 21
43 14
41 5
43 16
42 11
33 11 got a good cut - CSS was 5 over par!
40 17 CSS was 2 over par
41 7

not hugely scientific, and the relationship between par and CSS obviously has a huge impact on the relevance of any stableford score as it does on a nett medal result too.

it was also interesting that cat 4 players don't figure much in these either!!!!

 

[Snelly]

You wouldn't actually be able to provide a 'current and valid' cert would you? And what's this '2-4 depending'?

No I could not but I do have three old ones with me when I play anywhere and they are all 4 handicap or less so the chances of me racking up a 45 point score are somewhat limited. In addition, I am always happy to and have offered to play off scratch as per the rules, as I don't have an official handicap.

2 to 4? I should probably delete that as it might wind up the odd pedant. Basically my unofficial handicap in the society that I play most of my golf in is 2. This is results based in that if you win you are cut two shots and cut one if you're the runner up. I was the runner up at St Georges Hill off 3 in March, hence am off 2 for a year unless I win again. However, the other local society I play in does not have this approach in place and they let me play off 4.

If playing with friends then there is usually a low handicapper and I just play off the same as them. Again, if anyone wants to be uppity about it then I will play off whatever they are comfortable with. I am really not that bothered.

In reality, if I was at a club now then I think with my standard of play, I would be off about 4 but obviously I would put in some slightly stage managed cards for handicap at a higher point than that so that I could have the chance to win a few board competitions off 7 or 8.

 

[Foxholer]

So some people think that the guy just had a good day and hadn't been protecting his h/cap.
So my question is......
What level of scores would you think is too low for someone just having a 'good day'

Well, I'm not aware of all the facts, so wouldn't really want to jump to conclusions - in spite of my 'name and shame' post (an info gathering call).

Don't all your students have similarly good results?

Dean Knutz states that a 5 or 6 under handicap is 1:1500 or so - but that with US/Slope.

I've had several 8-9 under handicap rounds and a single 10 under - oddly all off 9!

 

[harpo_72]

Interesting read, I can see the eye brow twitchers, saw them at my club when I knocked around for 45 pts and took captain's day, but that was one round and the cut happened withing 1 hour of the cards being checked and signed. The point is the first round should have led to a cut ( laziness on the sec's part), sorry but these 2 round comps should be dealt with like this.
But also I feel the handicap system is too slow to react, I remember being cut the allowance + 2 more on observation because it was well known that I was improving. From what I understand this cannot happen now until there is some meeting etc. bottom line is the competition organisers and the handicap system are at fault by allowing the system to be abused ( honestly or dishonestly ).
Anyway here is the big one, I intend to shoot lower than my handicap, I don't show up expecting 36 points, that won't get me a cut, I want to shoot 40+ points competition position be damned. Nothing wrong with ambition, the problem is the people who moan about the cuts ... They are w*****s !

 

[Foxholer]

Interesting read, I can see the eye brow twitchers, saw them at my club when I knocked around for 45 pts and took captain's day, but that was one round and the cut happened withing 1 hour of the cards being checked and signed. The point is the first round should have led to a cut ( laziness on the sec's part), sorry but these 2 round comps should be dealt with like this.
But also I feel the handicap system is too slow to react, I remember being cut the allowance + 2 more on observation because it was well known that I was improving. From what I understand this cannot happen now until there is some meeting etc. bottom line is the competition organisers and the handicap system are at fault by allowing the system to be abused ( honestly or dishonestly ).
Anyway here is the big one, I intend to shoot lower than my handicap, I don't show up expecting 36 points, that won't get me a cut, I want to shoot 40+ points competition position be damned. Nothing wrong with ambition, the problem is the people who moan about the cuts ... They are w*****s !

An example of what can happen when you don't 'know the full facts'! Also know as 'A little knowledge can be dangerous'!

Conditions of Competition of 36 holes probably state that Handicap for 2nd round is starting handicap for 1st. So your 'laziness on sec's part' is utter rubbish!

ESRs now replace the 'General Play Adjustment'/Observation/Rule 19/23. Deemed to have been applied too inconsistently - and there is at least 1 example in this thread (I think) where that's the case. Yours +2 cut could well have been too!
Read this http://www.cgc-ni.com/uploads/CONGU ESR.pdf

I agree that system can be playing catch-up with improvers though. This guy will probably be off 12 or 13 (possibly even 11) from now though!