Windrush Scandal

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bit sorry for her, seemed like a capable minister and a moderate Tory too. Javid for HS apparently. Could argue Boris has made more cock ups than Rudd but he seems untouchable. Party to lurch even further right probably.

I agree - and I may be a cynic but suspect that the only reason that Boris has not been sacked whilst Rudd has gone is that the former is too dangerous a Brexiteer to have on the back-benches. I too rather liked Amber Rudd - notwithstanding the disgrace of this scandal as she has scrabbled around trying protect her boss without admitting her own culpability - or perhaps acquiescing to the demands of her boss and others in her statements over the last week. Well I do hope that she starts talking the reality of the mess we are in from the backbenches.

The PM knew of the deceit and deception being perpetrated by her HS - and said nothing - so for me the PM is complicit in that deceit and deception. May has lost her personal plot.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So are you proposing all illegal immigrants should be considered "legal" until the authorities prove otherwise?

And what should be done in the meantime
with those who are under suspicion?

Will they be kept in detention or should they be allowed to disappear back into society?

Not an easy one!

How do you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal one? Do the illegal immigrants have a special stamp on their forehead that identifies them without needing to be asked? And if you have to ask then you will inevitably be asking legal immigrants as well as illegal ones - and when you ask them to prove their residency rights and they cannot - then what?

And I'll bet nobody will ever stop me and ask me to provide proof of my right of residency. Unless that is we have a compulsory ID card. And then if I don't have it...

 

[Deleted member 18588]

How do you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal one? Do the illegal immigrants have a special stamp on their forehead that identifies them without needing to be asked? And if you have to ask then you will inevitably be asking legal immigrants - and when you ask them to prove their residency rights and they cannot - then what?

Is that not what I said?

It is not easy but are the authorities to just ignore the problem for fear of falsely accusing a legal immigrant.

Easy to criticise but rather more difficult to be constructive but then I suppose that's to be expected on an internet forum.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is that not what I said?

It is not easy but are the authorities to just ignore the problem for fear of falsely accusing a legal immigrant.

Easy to criticise but rather more difficult to be constructive but then I suppose that's to be expected on an internet forum.

Government has to come up with something that actually avoids the risk of getting it badly wrong - not just accepting that there will be times that the authorities will get it wrong. When they get it wrong things can be desperate for real people who have done nothing wrong. And they must tell those with the immigration dog-whistle where to put their whistles.

 

[Tashyboy]

Because, at a time when our public services are starved of money, it would cost billions, if people really wanted to they could forge one anyway plus I have a drivers license, passport, NI number etc etc already.

So why bother spending vast amounts of money we do not have introducing them for no specific reason?

Your first response sounds like a Tory response. Cost/ money etc. What about national security. How many illegals have a passport, drivers licence etc etc.

 

[MegaSteve]

I agree - and I may be a cynic but suspect that the only reason that Boris has not been sacked whilst Rudd has gone is that the former is too dangerous a Brexiteer to have on the back-benches. I too rather liked Amber Rudd - notwithstanding the disgrace of this scandal as she has scrabbled around trying protect her boss without admitting her own culpability - or perhaps acquiescing to the demands of her boss and others in her statements over the last week. Well I do hope that she starts talking the reality of the mess we are in from the backbenches.

The PM knew of the deceit and deception being perpetrated by her HS - and said nothing - so for me the PM is complicit in that deceit and deception. May has lost her personal plot.

I'd just like to point out Boris is not a 'Brexiteer'... He saw an opportunity to further his career and took it... As, up until then he'd nearly always shown support for the EU... BoJo's only thought/concern is for himself... And, will do whatever it takes to get to the front of the queue...

Our biggest concern is that the blue rinse folk love him too bits...
And, that is what frightens Ms May...

 

[Tashyboy]

Please explain how requiring ID at polling stations will prevent students or anyone else from registering twice. In answer to you second question because in the UK we are not required to hold any form of ID so will disenfrahise those that have a right to vote but have no ID

A national id system would /should be electronic. If the electoral system is synched to that. Once you have voted it is registered. Simples. No id, no vote. I don’t have a problem with that. The current voting system Mentioned is open to abuse.
Which has nowt to do with the windrush scandal btw.

 

[MegaSteve]

Your first response sounds like a Tory response. Cost/ money etc. What about national security. How many illegals have a passport, drivers licence etc etc.

Finding 'illegals' is easy it's what to do with them once identified that's the problem...

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Government has to come up with something that actually avoids the risk of getting it badly wrong - not just accepting that there will be times that the authorities will get it wrong. When they get it wrong things can be desperate for real people who have done nothing wrong. And they must tell those with the immigration dog-whistle where to put their whistles.

Interesting to hear Mike O'Brien, a former Labour minister, on BBC radio expressing some sympathy with Ms.Rudd and stating his opinion that of all the Departments of State the Home Office is probably the worst as a ministerial appointment.

There appears to be a detachment between Government policy and its application by the HO.

This culture has, seemingly, existed for many years.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd just like to point out Boris is not a 'Brexiteer'... He saw an opportunity to further his career and took it... As, up until then he'd nearly always shown support for the EU... BoJo's only thought/concern is for himself... And, will do whatever it takes to get to the front of the queue...

Our biggest concern is that the blue rinse folk love him too bits...
And, that is what frightens Ms May...

OK - sorry - I was trying to be nice - Boris the Cheating Chancer - because he is factually all that and more.

 

[Hobbit]

And I'll bet nobody will ever stop me and ask me to provide proof of my right of residency. Unless that is we have a compulsory ID card. And then if I don't have it...

Companies are asking for a copy of a passport and NI number as part of the interview for a job. If you change jobs you should be asked. Its part of an amendment of the 2008 Nationalities Act.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting to hear Mike O'Brien, a former Labour minister, on BBC radio expressing some sympathy with Ms.Rudd and stating his opinion that of all the Departments of State the Home Office is probably the worst as a ministerial appointment.

There appears to be a detachment between Government policy and its application by the HO.

This culture has, seemingly, existed for many years.

Where there is a problematic culture burning away, what you just don't do is poke it or pour petrol on it - and that is what May as HS absolutely did. I do not believe there has been any detachment between government and HO on implementation of immigration policy. I suspect that the HO office understand absolutely coded messages contained in government policy and statements made by ministers in respect of immigration - messages that are too unpalatable for ministers to be explicit about. Civil Servants do not just make up policy - they know what they are actually being asked to do and will make sure that government knows what they are doing.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Where there is a problematic culture burning away, what you just don't do is poke it or pour petrol on it - and that is what May as HS absolutely did. I do not believe there has been any detachment between government and HO on implementation of immigration policy. I suspect that the HO office understand absolutely coded messages contained in government policy and statements made by ministers in respect of immigration - messages that are too unpalatable for ministers to be explicit about. Civil Servants do not just make up policy - they know what they are actually being asked to do and will make sure that government knows what they are doing.

End of discussion!

You now clearly want to use this as yet another opportunity to air your anti-Brexit and anti-Tory prejudices.

You have absolutely no idea of what the inner workings of the Home Office might be but when has a lack of knowledge ever stopped you.

A former HO Minister described his own experiences whilst there but you dismiss that as it doesn't fit your narrative.

I now remember why I previously decided to steer clear of the political posts on this forum.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

End of discussion!

You now clearly want to use this as yet another opportunity to air your anti-Brexit and anti-Tory prejudices.

You have absolutely no idea of what the inner workings of the Home Office might be but when has a lack of knowledge ever stopped you.

A former HO Minister described his own experiences whilst there but you dismiss that as it doesn't fit your narrative.

I now remember why I previously decided to steer clear of the political posts on this forum.

How precisely do you draw that conclusion?

Are you suggesting that the Civil Service acts as it sees fit rather than as ministers require? Well I suppose there was Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister as our sources of truth.

Of course you might be quite right and Civil Servants just do what they want to do...

 

[Hacker Khan]

Your first response sounds like a Tory response. Cost/ money etc. What about national security. How many illegals have a passport, drivers licence etc etc.

But unfortunately cost/money will play a huge part in any decision. It is political suicide really for any government to decide to spend billions on an ID scheme to solve some non-defined 'national security' problem when the public services are so publicity short of cash.

As I'm not a huge fan of the Tories I kind of hope they decide to go for it as it will inevitably end in tears. But I think they are not that stupid.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Bit sorry for her, seemed like a capable minister and a moderate Tory too. Javid for HS apparently. Could argue Boris has made more cock ups than Rudd but he seems untouchable. Party to lurch even further right probably.

I dont. She's paid a very good wage to do her job, the least she can do is be honest when being questioned.

That goes for all MP's.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I dont. She's paid a very good wage to do her job, the least she can do is be honest when being questioned.

That goes for all MP's.

Of course she should answer honestly - but that can be difficult especially if she was under duress (real or imagined) to answer as she did.

Did you hear Brandon Lewis on Marr yesterday excruciatingly trying to differentiate between a target and an ambition. So when Cameron and then May talked about getting immigration into the 10s of thousands that wasn't a target it was an ambition - and of course they are quite different? Tell you what. I bet you a lot of the electorate took it as a committed-to target - especially when May has been pressed on it and she has reiterated it.

Why was he doing this?

Low Hanging Fruit and all that. Disgraceful. Who next?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

How precisely do you draw that conclusion?

Are you suggesting that the Civil Service acts as it sees fit rather than as ministers require? Well I suppose there was Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister as our sources of truth.

Of course you might be quite right and Civil Servants just do what they want to do...

By listening this morning to Mike O'Brien on BBC 5Live who, in his time, served as a Minister in a number of Departments.

 

[SocketRocket]

How precisely do you draw that conclusion?

Are you suggesting that the Civil Service acts as it sees fit rather than as ministers require? Well I suppose there was Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister as our sources of truth.

Of course you might be quite right and Civil Servants just do what they want to do...

It's unreasonable to expect someone like a Cabinet Minister or the CEO of a Large organisation to know the detail of every memo / policy/ discussion that takes place. You have to delegate responsibility to people that have been given a brief and then need to create the systems / processes to actuate the policy. OK, as the head of department you are ultimately responsible but if the people down the chain fail to carry out policy outlined then they should be held to account.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Today

Labour has used its opposition day debate to put the government’s back against the wall over Windrush, tabling this motion which attempts to force the effective publication of all internal discussions about the Windrush cohort over the past eight years. That would mean we could find out what happened inside the Home Office when May was in charge…

Tory MPs were put on a three-line whip this morning to vote against the motion, which looks like a vote against transparency, all the more awkward the day before the local elections. Labour are already gearing up to call “cover up”:

https://order-order.com/2018/05/02/tories-on-three-line-whip-to-vote-against-windrush-transparency/

Why is May applying a 3-line whip over this - what does she not want out there? Is she soooo in hock to the Daily Mail and the Sun over immigration?