WHS scoring

[Colin L]

I wasn't involved. It seems our assistant manager was speaking to EG about something else and decided to check this.

Sounds as if it was more of a "by the way" question than one obligated by a regulation.

At the moment, my interest is academic, as there is so much winter work going on at our course over the winter there is no chance of any comps or general play scores. But that's no great loss considering what our newish course manager is achieving.

 

[D-S]

If an individual strokeplay competition is being run over 18 holes but with 3 holes of the 18 not acceptable for handicapping as they have temporary greens with oversize holes, must this competition be acceptable for handicapping as 15 ‘acceptable’ measured holes in an acceptable competition on a measured rated course will have been played and the others could be declared as ‘Not Started’ or as three ‘unacceptable’ holes have been started must this competition not be acceptable?
Basically if you play ‘unacceptable’ holes does this force an alteration of the competition status.

 

[rulefan]

Basically if you play ‘unacceptable’ holes does this force an alteration of the competition status.

IMO no. The holes are effectively out of play.
Incidentally (IMO again), they must be declared OOB or not be played as otherwise players would be charged with practicing on the course.
Incidentally (again), I have since had confirmation from the county that marking our out of play hole as DNS is fine.

 

[D-S]

IMO no. The holes are effectively out of play.
Incidentally (IMO again), they must be declared OOB or not be played as otherwise players would be charged with practicing on the course.
Incidentally (again), I have since had confirmation from the county that marking our out of play hole as DNS is fine.

Thank you for that.
Out of interest, if the three holes with unacceptable holes were 16, 17 and 18 and therefore played after completion of 15 acceptable holes would the round be still unacceptable as ‘practice on the course’ would be after the ‘round’?

 

[rulefan]

Thank you for that.
Out of interest, if the three holes with unacceptable holes were 16, 17 and 18 and therefore played after completion of 15 acceptable holes would the round be still unacceptable as ‘practice on the course’ would be after the ‘round’?

IMO (again) the committee should simply tell the players to return DNS for those holes. As Rule 7 says, the Committee are responsible for determining the validity of the score.
I doubt that any other (higher) authority would argue with players/clubs getting in more handicap cards.

 

[backwoodsman]

The last four posts suggest, to me, that it would be unwise to run an 18 hole competition using only 15 'acceptable' holes. Given that for handicapping purposes 'DNS' has to be entered into the software for the three 'unacceptable' holes, where does one enter the three 'scores' for those holes? Presumably it has to be done separately & scored/counted manually? Seems more sensible to me to just run a 15 hole comp?

 

[rulefan]

The last four posts suggest, to me, that it would be unwise to run an 18 hole competition using only 15 'acceptable' holes. Given that for handicapping purposes 'DNS' has to be entered into the software for the three 'unacceptable' holes, where does one enter the three 'scores' for those holes? Presumably it has to be done separately & scored/counted manually? Seems more sensible to me to just run a 15 hole comp?

The system automatically assigns scores of net par to the DNS holes. See table in 3.2.
A 15 hole comp will have no effect on handicapping outcome.

 

[backwoodsman]

The system automatically assigns scores of net par to the DNS holes. See table in 3.2.
A 15 hole comp will have no effect on handicapping outcome.

All I meant was that if you (or the system) are entering a 'DNS' for an ineligible hole, then presumably you can't also be entering that you scored a 5 (or whatever) on that hole for the competition? Presumably the club would be running two sets of scores (one of 18 holes for the comp, and one of 15 + 3 for handicapping)? Not something I'm going to fret about.

 

[jim8flog]

Presumably the club would be running two sets of scores (one of 18 holes for the comp, and one of 15 + 3 for handicapping)? Not something I'm going to fret about.

A little as per Rulefan

There would be no necessity to run two sets of scores as everybody in the comp gets given the same score for the holes eg if it is a stableford comp every body gets the same number of points for those holes (2 points per hole) so the total difference between one player and another remains the same.


"All I meant was that if you (or the system) are entering a 'DNS' for an ineligible hole, then presumably you can't also be entering that you scored a 5 (or whatever) on that hole for the competition?"

correct

If the club has declared it a 15 hole competition then you should not be entering scores on those holes (even if you played them) only did not start or not started depending on your ISV.

 

[backwoodsman]

I fear you are missing a point (or perhaps I am?). I read it that the club is running an 18 hole competion - so actual scores are required for18 holes. But on a course where only 15 holes are acceptable for handicapping because of the oversize holes on x3 temp greens. If, for handicapping purposes, everyone records DNS for three holes and is given an equal score for them, then surely it's only a 15 hole comp? But if actual scores are required for all 18 holes, then what ??

(And on that note, I'm out ...)

 

[rulefan]

I fear you are missing a point (or perhaps I am?). I read it that the club is running an 18 hole competion - so actual scores are required for18 holes. But on a course where only 15 holes are acceptable for handicapping because of the oversize holes on x3 temp greens. If, for handicapping purposes, everyone records DNS for three holes and is given an equal score for them, then surely it's only a 15 hole comp? But if actual scores are required for all 18 holes, then what ??

(And on that note, I'm out ...)

As said before, the system will allocate net par for each of those holes but the committee can ignore those hole scores and just count 15 scores for the competition. WHS is interested in counting the played and allocated scores (and will record them). The committee is only interested in the 15 holes total and calculate that themselves.

 

[wjemather]

As said before, the system will allocate net par for each of those holes but the committee can ignore those hole scores and just count 15 scores for the competition. WHS is interested in counting the played and allocated scores (and will record them). The committee is only interested in the 15 holes total and calculate that themselves.

This still isn't really answering the question that was being asked in #22, which is not about running a 15-hole competition and scaling up for handicapping. The committee is running an 18-hole comp that includes 3 temporary greens with oversized bucket holes. The question is... when there are a small number of temporary greens in play with oversized holes, can/should/must those hole scores be replaced with nett pars to make the round scores acceptable for handicapping?

On the face of it the scores for handicapping would be exactly the same as if the holes were actually closed. I remember asking this question via county last year but never received a definitive answer. Perhaps I'll ask again.

 

[D-S]

This still isn't really answering the question that was being asked in #22, which is not about running a 15-hole competition and scaling up for handicapping. The committee is running an 18-hole comp that includes 3 temporary greens with oversized bucket holes. The question is... when there are a small number of temporary greens in play with oversized holes, can/should/must those hole scores be replaced with nett pars to make the round scores acceptable for handicapping?

On the face of it the scores for handicapping would be exactly the same as if the holes were actually closed. I remember asking this question via county last year but never received a definitive answer. Perhaps I'll ask again.

I assumed that Rulefan's opinion that having these 3 holes in play (even if the actual score was disregarded for handicap purposes and replaced with net pars) would constitute practicing on the course.

 

[wjemather]

I assumed that Rulefan's opinion that having these 3 holes in play (even if the actual score was disregarded for handicap purposes and replaced with net pars) would constitute practicing on the course.

When the holes in question are part of the 18 in use for the competition, playing them in the course of the competition round cannot be deemed practicing.

 

[D-S]

When the holes in question are part of the 18 in use for the competition, playing them in the course of the competition round cannot be deemed practicing.

But can they be deemed as practicing as part of the 15 holes used for handicap purposes? I thought that for a round to be acceptable for handicap, it had to be played under the rules of golf?

 

[wjemather]

But can they be deemed as practicing as part of the 15 holes used for handicap purposes? I thought that for a round to be acceptable for handicap, it had to be played under the rules of golf?

I don't see how it could possibly be deemed practicing, which would not make a score unacceptable for handicapping anyway - the penalty for practicing is the general penalty.

 

[D-S]

I don't see how it could possibly be deemed practicing, which would not make a score unacceptable for handicapping anyway - the penalty for practicing is the general penalty.

Not my opinion on whether it is practicing but Rulefan’s. Would maybe good to get some others’ views?
In your scenario, would the general play penalty be applicable to the ‘handicap round’? and if so why on earth would you enter a competition knowing that playing in it would give you penalty strokes (you could even deem this handicap manipulation).

 

[wjemather]

Not my opinion on whether it is practicing but Rulefan’s. Would maybe good to get some others’ views?
In your scenario, would the general play penalty be applicable to the ‘handicap round’? and if so why on earth would you enter a competition knowing that playing in it would give you penalty strokes (you could even deem this handicap manipulation).

My view is that it isn't practicing so no penalty would apply. Seems to me that Rulefan's opinion was based on a 15-hole round/comp and as such, the 3 additional "practice" holes shouldn't have been played.

Clarification should be sought from EG/CONGU as to the whether such rounds can be submitted for handicapping and if yes, how that is done (even though it seems obvious to treat the holes as closed and scale up accordingly).

 

[rulefan]

Sorry if I have confused the issue. I was partially referring to the situation at my club where the 18th is closed for groundworks but a temporary hole 15a has been made available. Players have to divert to play this hole. Players walk alongside the 18th (which is roped off and is physically unplayable) on the way from the 17th to the clubhouse. In this case, although it was made clear that only the 17 'proper' holes were to be played in a qualifier, there was the potential for some to stray off onto 15a. So it was declared OOB when a comp was being played or if a GP score was being returned. It is played in social and other forms of non qualifying rounds.

The complication arises in the OP situation where the 'odd' holes are at the end of the course and are physically 'playable' although not conforming.

I don't really see an issue if the 15 qualifier TOCs were to say that holes 16, 17 & 18 were technically unplayable. Any score other than DNS must not be entered. Players continuing in the 'unofficial' (ie non qualifying) 18 hole comp should keep a card score for those holes only. It would be very easy for the committee to add these off line to the 15 hole played scores.

Edit: I have just reread 2.1b/3 and it seems to me that if the last 3 holes were OB the committee could legitimately apply the last sentence of the first paragraph. As all players would be treated in the same way the last paragraph would not apply.

 

[D-S]

Sorry if I have confused the issue. I was partially referring to the situation at my club where the 18th is closed for groundworks but a temporary hole 15a has been made available. Players have to divert to play this hole. Players walk alongside the 18th (which is roped off and is physically unplayable) on the way from the 17th to the clubhouse. In this case, although it was made clear that only the 17 'proper' holes were to be played in a qualifier, there was the potential for some to stray off onto 15a. So it was declared OOB when a comp was being played or if a GP score was being returned. It is played in social and other forms of non qualifying rounds.

The complication arises in the OP situation where the 'odd' holes are at the end of the course and are physically 'playable' although not conforming.

I don't really see an issue if the 15 qualifier TOCs were to say that holes 16, 17 & 18 were technically unplayable. Any score other than DNS must not be entered. Players continuing in the 'unofficial' (ie non qualifying) 18 hole comp should keep a card score for those holes only. It would be very easy for the committee to add these off line to the 15 hole played scores.

Edit: I have just reread 2.1b/3 and it seems to me that if the last 3 holes were OB the committee could legitimately apply the last sentence of the first paragraph. As all players would be treated in the same way the last paragraph would not apply.

So if the ‘non qualifying holes are 16!17 and 18 it is ok to have the round as acceptable for handicap?What if they are amidst the other 15 holes?