WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[IanMcC]

Had a really odd one again today with CV1, which actually concerned myself. I played on Friday and my Index went from 11.4 to 11.3. When signing in for the Sunday comp, I noticed that I wasn't getting the correct allowance. 11.3 should get me a CH of 15 and PH of 14 at our course. The system gave me 13/12, as can be seen on the screenshot. I signed in via HDID and the figures were incorrect also. People with lower indexes than me were getting more shots! I reported it to the pro, and he raised a ticket with Club Systems. After I played, when I entered my score, the allowance showed the correct 15/14. I would be surprised if Club Systems fixed it with intervention on a Bank Holiday Sunday, but you never know. Has anyone here seen anything similar?

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Yesterday my club held 36 hole multi Round comp all set up through IG. Scores from R1 entered and comp closed, scores from R2 entered and comp closed.

After trophy giving I packed up and forgot to close these combined comp, thought no real issue as the scores from both rounds are posted, but this morning only one score showing on the EG WHS Portal so closed mult round comp it this morning only to find that for 10 players 3 rounds are on the the EG WHS Portal (1 round duplicated), which I don't understand, but anyway sent a ticket to IG

More work to go through each score and delete which is ticking me off and will be the reason I will probably give up running comps at my club, the amount checking and work we are having do for comps and GP scores to cover up the inadequacies of the WHS system is out of proportion for a volunteer.

Anyone else seen the system duplicating rounds on the EG WHS Portal?

Yes. I've seen duplicates from multiple comps run last month through V1 too.

A way to check on the WHS Portal is to run the General Play report including Comps to Excel.
Then filter rows where Scorecard Download is 01:10 (include 01:20 for a 36 hole event).

Folk may have played 36 holes in a day, so not all will be duplicates.

I can't guarantee that the IG interfaced scores look the same as V1.

I suspect the underlying cause has been there since 2020 but is only visible to us lowly golfers/HSecs since April.

PS. I have full empathy with your view of the workload.

 

[D-S]

Had a player trying to enter a GP score via the EG App on a Welsh course. They were unable to create a scorecard on the APP as there were no tees set. The Club had run a qualifying comp earlier in the day and the players in front were able to enter GP scores on the Welsh App.
If I check the course via my EG App there are no tees set though other neighbouring Welsh clubs had tees set. Any ideas as to why?
Also, seems a very limited amount of Welsh courses available via the App and the nearest to me (St.Pierre) doesn’t appear.

 

[D-S]

For those of you who might not be aware EG changed the way they calculate scores for acceptability in 4BB versus what they said in the the seminars and their widely distributed infographic. This is a Facebook post from 14/5 which explains the change, the guidance has been updated but no direct communication has been received from EG on this change, as far as I know, has been sent out. This change has already caused some confusion amongst clubs and this post helps clear this up.

“Update for those (like me) who have been struggling to understand exactly how 4 ball betterball stableford competition scoring works for handicaps. (Sorry this is a bit longwinded)
Firstly thank you EG for the clarifications and example in Version 2.5 of the Guidance, very helpful. One subtle thing which I had not previously realised is that whilst the 42 point "bar" applies to the pair's competitions score, when aggregating the individual score of the players contributing on 9 holes or more (1.5 points, 1 point etc), you then add the difference between their playing(85%) and course(100%) to their score BEFORE assessing the 36 point individual "bar". So if a player with a playing handicap of 8 but course handicap of 10, has an aggregated score of 35 points in the competition scoring, they will have a score of 37 for handicap purposes and the score will go on their handicap record. This is shown on the 4BBB Infographic but I hadn't appreciated the timing was before assessing of the 36 individual points.
All of this has worked fine in our 4 ball competition this weekend and 9 players received handicap adjustments, including one whose handicap went up because his new score replaced a better score which dropped off.
One other (much previously debated) point, one pair chose to enter both their scores on multiple holes where they had the same stableford score, which is possible in IG score entry and as a result dotgolf assessed one player as having 16 counting scores and the other had 11. Both received handicap cuts. Clearly a handicapping implication issue we need to communicate to these members, not to mention the potential impact on slow play.
Hope this helps clarify some of the previous queries on 4BBB”.

 

[wjemather]

For those of you who might not be aware EG changed the way they calculate scores for acceptability in 4BB versus what they said in the the seminars and their widely distributed infographic. This is a Facebook post from 14/5 which explains the change, the guidance has been updated but no direct communication has been received from EG on this change, as far as I know, has been sent out. This change has already caused some confusion amongst clubs and this post helps clear this up.

“Update for those (like me) who have been struggling to understand exactly how 4 ball betterball stableford competition scoring works for handicaps. (Sorry this is a bit longwinded)
Firstly thank you EG for the clarifications and example in Version 2.5 of the Guidance, very helpful. One subtle thing which I had not previously realised is that whilst the 42 point "bar" applies to the pair's competitions score, when aggregating the individual score of the players contributing on 9 holes or more (1.5 points, 1 point etc), you then add the difference between their playing(85%) and course(100%) to their score BEFORE assessing the 36 point individual "bar". So if a player with a playing handicap of 8 but course handicap of 10, has an aggregated score of 35 points in the competition scoring, they will have a score of 37 for handicap purposes and the score will go on their handicap record. This is shown on the 4BBB Infographic but I hadn't appreciated the timing was before assessing of the 36 individual points.
All of this has worked fine in our 4 ball competition this weekend and 9 players received handicap adjustments, including one whose handicap went up because his new score replaced a better score which dropped off.
One other (much previously debated) point, one pair chose to enter both their scores on multiple holes where they had the same stableford score, which is possible in IG score entry and as a result dotgolf assessed one player as having 16 counting scores and the other had 11. Both received handicap cuts. Clearly a handicapping implication issue we need to communicate to these members, not to mention the potential impact on slow play.
Hope this helps clarify some of the previous queries on 4BBB”.

I'm not sure what you are saying has changed.

The only change to the example in the guidance is the use of rounded CH (prior to v2.5 it showed unrounded); the methodology itself is unchanged and remains as per Rule 5.10 (Note 1: The player’s full, unrestricted Course Handicap should be used to calculate their individual score), which the seminar and infographic are consistent with (even if the latter has the potential to be misread/misunderstood).

 

[IanMcC]

I was refereeing at a reasonably local course today in Wales. I was speaking to some spotters, who were members. They were up in arms at the new rating figures that their course received last week, when they were re-rated.

White old - par 70/CR 72.0/Slope 120

White new - 70/68.8/106

Yellow old - 70/70.0/118

Yellow new - 70/67.7/103

Does anyone here know why there is such a massive difference? The course has not changed significantly since the last rating. Have the parameters changed in the last 10 years somewhat?

 

[Swango1980]

I was refereeing at a reasonably local course today in Wales. I was speaking to some spotters, who were members. They were up in arms at the new rating figures that their course received last week, when they were re-rated.

White old - par 70/CR 72.0/Slope 120

White new - 70/68.8/106

Yellow old - 70/70.0/118

Yellow new - 70/67.7/103

Does anyone here know why there is such a massive difference? The course has not changed significantly since the last rating. Have the parameters changed in the last 10 years somewhat?

Was this course not recently mentioned somewhere in here? Those figures seem awfully familiar

 

[rulefan]

I was refereeing at a reasonably local course today in Wales. I was speaking to some spotters, who were members. They were up in arms at the new rating figures that their course received last week, when they were re-rated.

White old - par 70/CR 72.0/Slope 120

White new - 70/68.8/106

Yellow old - 70/70.0/118

Yellow new - 70/67.7/103

Does anyone here know why there is such a massive difference? The course has not changed significantly since the last rating. Have the parameters changed in the last 10 years somewhat?

Of course Par is not part of the Rating process.

 

[Swango1980]

Of course Par is not part of the Rating process.

I don't think Par was the point he was making...

 

[rulefan]

Was this course not recently mentioned somewhere in here? Those figures seem awfully familiar

I think this was the thread

Soft and hard caps kicking in following re-rating

Our course was re-rated in the back end of 2023 such that the slope and CR went down. Our soft and hard caps are now all kicking in which stops people bothering with GP cards (rightly or wrongly). Is this a fault in "the system" and should the caps get reset in some way (and how)?

forums.golfmonthly.com

 

[rulefan]

I don't think Par was the point he was making...

I just wondered why it was mentioned.

 

[D-S]

I was refereeing at a reasonably local course today in Wales. I was speaking to some spotters, who were members. They were up in arms at the new rating figures that their course received last week, when they were re-rated.

White old - par 70/CR 72.0/Slope 120

White new - 70/68.8/106

Yellow old - 70/70.0/118

Yellow new - 70/67.7/103

Does anyone here know why there is such a massive difference? The course has not changed significantly since the last rating. Have the parameters changed in the last 10 years somewhat?

What are the yardages off the two tee sets and any idea of the magnitude of any length change at the time of both ratings? If there haven’t been major changes, either it was incredibly wrongly rated before or something odd has happened in the latest one.
Those numbers would suggest something like a 4-500 yard distance change.

 

[rulefan]

I asked tobybarker twice (in the other thread) for the lengths but didn't get a response

 

[IanMcC]

Yellow 5898 and white 6160. I played here 10 years ago. No significant changes. May have lost one or two bunkers, but not in landing areas as far as I can tell. Certainly no yardage change.

 

[D-S]

Yellow 5898 and white 6160. I played here 10 years ago. No significant changes. May have lost one or two bunkers, but not in landing areas as far as I can tell. Certainly no yardage change.

Seems like a bit of both. Old 6160 and 72 seems high, New 6160 and 68.8 seems a a bit low - slope of 106 is really, really low - sort of the slope you get in a wide open field with few if any bunkers and really wide fairways.

 

[rulefan]

Yellow 5898 and white 6160. I played here 10 years ago. No significant changes. May have lost one or two bunkers, but not in landing areas as far as I can tell. Certainly no yardage change.

Rough & ready calcs.

Y @ 5898 approx = 68.8
W @ 6160 approx = 70.0

 

[D-S]

Rough & ready calcs.

Y @ 5898 approx = 68.8
W @ 6160 approx = 70.0

So both the previous and the new seem a bit out.

As I mentioned earlier 106 and 103 Slopes are incredibly low, I have been checking and can only find one course/tee set in the county with a slope of less than 106 and that is Painswick of the forward tees at 105 and that is a 4500yd CR 63.9 course, which has no bunkers. There is hardly a ‘normal’ course under 115.

 

[rulefan]

So both the previous and the new seem a bit out.

As I mentioned earlier 106 and 103 Slopes are incredibly low, I have been checking and can only find one course/tee set in the county with a slope of less than 106 and that is Painswick of the forward tees at 105 and that is a 4500yd CR 63.9 course, which has no bunkers. There is hardly a ‘normal’ course under 115.

Yes. All very odd.

 

[D-S]

I’m doing a couple of ratings in the next week or so and I’ll have a chat with the lead rater about this and will be interested to see whether the numbers on the courses we’re rating come out much different to before.
The more I think about this case, the more I believe some fundamental error has been made - if I were the club I’d be appealing it asap as it will make a nonsense of everyone’s handicaps.

 

[tobybarker]

I’m doing a couple of ratings in the next week or so and I’ll have a chat with the lead rater about this and will be interested to see whether the numbers on the courses we’re rating come out much different to before.
The more I think about this case, the more I believe some fundamental error has been made - if I were the club I’d be appealing it asap as it will make a nonsense of everyone’s handicaps.

Hi. We did raise the prospect of an appeal but we're told to save our money because it would only change by a tiny amount at best

I was one if the spotters chatted to at the welsh youths open .... In other news it was a great 3 days of competition, but the kiddos all struggled with the course and the ones i spoke to all said it's harder than the cr would suggest.....


If any rater has any influence on wg then please mention it! Our responses have pretty much fallen on deaf ears