WHS doesn't work

[MiurasFan]

I have heard players say” I need to get a few shots back to compete”
WHS let’s them do that much easier than the old system did ,, That’s the problem for me it’s to easy to manipulate if that way inclined.

There's a difference between making that statement (quite possibly simply factual) and engineering it (handicap manipulation aka cheating)!

 

[MiurasFan]

Interesting. Not related to WHS, but beginning g to wonder if my club are doing the same. On 2nd hole there was a lot of heather and bushes to left of fairway. Pull a driver, you are in big trouble. No bail out right either, as there are big trees. So, you risk hitting a driver and leaving a wedge in to the green, or hit iron off tee (so if pulled, should still be OK), but leaving yourself 170-200 yards to green. This winter, the green staff have taken out pretty much all the trouble on the left, so a player can just tonk driver and not worry so much if they go left at all. On 14th, a par 3, there was a bunker (maybe our signature bunker) left of green, with a face about 6ft high. It was steep, but slopped enough that it shouldn't really be an issue. This winter, they've ripped it out, and flattened it, so the face is now going to be about 6 inches to a foot. I've heard that this was done because a few seniors didn't like the high face, though not sure how true that is.

But, yes, it does feel like the club are doing things to make the course easier. Perhaps to improve pace of play, although rounds always appear quicker at my club than the last one. 4 balls are often easily under 4 hours (3hr 30 yesterday), and 3 ball comps not much over 3 hours. At my last club, a short course, rounds could be upwards of 4hrs 30 minutes. Some very slow players, and silly hedges and rough bordering fairways.

This isn't a new phenomenon!

 

[woofers]

IMHO it’s not just WHS at my club that’s caused the big scores.
The club had quite a few new players join.
They have completely butchered the rough for pace of play.
They also cut off every branch on the trees up to 10’ so you can swing in the trees.

so a scratch player who hits a lot of fairways the course hasn’t changed.
But a player who misses every fairway can hit a 3 wood from the “ rough” and the trees.

I have heard players say” I need to get a few shots back to compete”
WHS let’s them do that much easier than the old system did ,, That’s the problem for me it’s to easy to manipulate if that way inclined.

Interesting. Not related to WHS, but beginning g to wonder if my club are doing the same. On 2nd hole there was a lot of heather and bushes to left of fairway. Pull a driver, you are in big trouble. No bail out right either, as there are big trees. So, you risk hitting a driver and leaving a wedge in to the green, or hit iron off tee (so if pulled, should still be OK), but leaving yourself 170-200 yards to green. This winter, the green staff have taken out pretty much all the trouble on the left, so a player can just tonk driver and not worry so much if they go left at all. On 14th, a par 3, there was a bunker (maybe our signature bunker) left of green, with a face about 6ft high. It was steep, but slopped enough that it shouldn't really be an issue. This winter, they've ripped it out, and flattened it, so the face is now going to be about 6 inches to a foot. I've heard that this was done because a few seniors didn't like the high face, though not sure how true that is.

But, yes, it does feel like the club are doing things to make the course easier. Perhaps to improve pace of play, although rounds always appear quicker at my club than the last one. 4 balls are often easily under 4 hours (3hr 30 yesterday), and 3 ball comps not much over 3 hours. At my last club, a short course, rounds could be upwards of 4hrs 30 minutes. Some very slow players, and silly hedges and rough bordering fairways.

So technically your courses should be reassessed and re-rated if you believe the course changes are making such a difference?

 

[Swango1980]

So technically your courses should be reassessed and re-rated if you believe the course changes are making such a difference?

Potentially, yet I've no idea if that would make a difference to the numbers, as the process is very secretive. On the 2nd, the fairway has the same border, so I'm not sure lighter rough, removal of bushes off the fairway would have on the rating calculations? All I know is that it makes the drive on the hole so much easier, and therefore the second shot (much shorter). And, on the 14th, the bunker will still remain in the same location, just miles shallower.

It would be interesting to see what impact it would have, but I doubt the club would ever call for it to be rerated. Last year, they added 3 bunkers to left of 17th fairway (not there before), partly to help protect balls flying through to 18th tee. I heard no news that any re-rating would be done, or was needed to be done.

 

[sweaty sock]

Dont believe for a second cutting a bit of rough and lopping some branches of trees will make a difference.

In my experience 99% of all course rating could be done in a dark room with a man shouting out total yardage and a another shouting out a course rating...

 

[woofers]

Potentially, yet I've no idea if that would make a difference to the numbers, as the process is very secretive. On the 2nd, the fairway has the same border, so I'm not sure lighter rough, removal of bushes off the fairway would have on the rating calculations? All I know is that it makes the drive on the hole so much easier, and therefore the second shot (much shorter). And, on the 14th, the bunker will still remain in the same location, just miles shallower.

It would be interesting to see what impact it would have, but I doubt the club would ever call for it to be rerated. Last year, they added 3 bunkers to left of 17th fairway (not there before), partly to help protect balls flying through to 18th tee. I heard no news that any re-rating would be done, or was needed to be done.

Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping might be of interest to you.
You state that you feel the club are doing things to make the course easier, in which case either it should be reviewed for ratings or there needs to acceptance that scores will be better than previously and the impact that will have on handicaps adjustments.
It's not the fault of the system if the club have made changes and can't be bothered to enquire if a re-rating is necessary.

 

[woofers]

Dont believe for a second cutting a bit of rough and lopping some branches of trees will make a difference.

In my experience 99% of all course rating could be done in a dark room with a man shouting out total yardage and a another shouting out a course rating...

Thanks for that, just out of interest, what is your experience?

 

[AussieKB]

At our course the original rating was 113, done by an 18 handicap golfer, I later found out that he took a course on how to rate a golf courses......
we had the course rerated and using his notes the new guy said are those trees in play, 200 yards off the tee about 50 feet high, our Captain said yes they are hit all the time, his comment was they not in his notes.

Course was rerated to 118, and it is still tough, many single low figure golfers come and play and cannot break 80.

My opinion is that before whoever rates the course, they must be made to play the course first.......then when they say its an easy course and they only had 28 points, we can all laugh at them.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My opinion is that before whoever rates the course, they must be made to play the course first.......then when they say its an easy course and they only had 28 points, we can all laugh at them.

Could they have to sit at a table in the bar, on competition day, with a sign in front of them explaining all of this? They have to sit there from 11am-4pm so everyone gets their chance to mock. The golfing equivalent of the walk of shame

 

[sweaty sock]

Thanks for that, just out of interest, what is your experience?

Been on the raters course, never rated a course, but been witness to a number of ratings.

 

[Teebs]

My course has removed some trees and rough areas to try and improve pace of play. We did have a short par 4 with trees down the left off the tee. As a right-hander you needed to either hit a draw to leave yourself with 100 yards or chop a 6 iron down and leave 150 or so..the majority of players got tangled in the trees so they've removed them.

The hole plays a lot better now IMHO

 

[AussieKB]

The main problem I see is the ratings have been written for a US golf course......so whatever Country you are in it does not work.....
we don't have our course manicured or set up like US courses.

 

[Swango1980]

I

Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping might be of interest to you.
You state that you feel the club are doing things to make the course easier, in which case either it should be reviewed for ratings or there needs to acceptance that scores will be better than previously and the impact that will have on handicaps adjustments.
It's not the fault of the system if the club have made changes and can't be bothered to enquire if a re-rating is necessary.

I am not sure why they have done it. I suspected it was to improve pace of play, but as a consequence made the 2nd an easier proposition. Perhaps the bunker change on 14 was to make it easier for some.

I'm not sure how often clubs contact the county union about course ratings, every time they make a few changes to the course though?

 

[rulefan]

At our course the original rating was 113, done by an 18 handicap golfer, I later found out that he took a course on how to rate a golf courses......
we had the course rerated and using his notes the new guy said are those trees in play, 200 yards off the tee about 50 feet high, our Captain said yes they are hit all the time, his comment was they not in his notes.

Course was rerated to 118, and it is still tough, many single low figure golfers come and play and cannot break 80.

My opinion is that before whoever rates the course, they must be made to play the course first.......then when they say its an easy course and they only had 28 points, we can all laugh at them.

Very odd to have a rating of 118 or 113. A Course Rating is normally between 65 and 75 (it isn't the same but usually approximates to par). Did you mean the Slope? Of course that only tells you the relative difficulty for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player. It tells you nothing about the actual difficulty of a course.

Further, the USGA Rating System (licensed by the USGA and used for all WHS ratings) requires that rating is done by a team of at least three trained and experience raters.
In addition, raters would not normally ask members how a hole is actually played or where balls actually finish whatever the player intended.

 

[rulefan]

The main problem I see is the ratings have been written for a US golf course......so whatever Country you are in it does not work.....
we don't have our course manicured or set up like US courses.

The rating system parameters are designed for differences around the world and has been used worldwide for many years. Have you ever read the manual or been involved in rating?

 

[AussieKB]

Very odd to have a rating of 118 or 113. A Course Rating is normally between 65 and 75 (it isn't the same but usually approximates to par). Did you mean the Slope? Of course that only tells you the relative difficulty for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player. It tells you nothing about the actual difficulty of a course.

Further, the USGA Rating System (licensed by the USGA and used for all WHS ratings) requires that rating is done by a team of at least three trained and experience raters.
In addition, raters would not normally ask members how a hole is actually played or where balls actually finish whatever the player intended.

Sorry slope rating you are correct

 

[Deleted member 30522]

You have hard evidence for that? Certainly not so at my club and not consistent with my conversation with EG. But as D-S has said, there is no published data. However Slope does have an effect.

Very widespread in NE Scotland, that's exactly how it went down

 

[MiurasFan]

Very widespread in NE Scotland, that's exactly how it went down

Perhaps, But not exactly the 'hard evidence' that was asked for!

 

[clubchamp98]

So technically your courses should be reassessed and re-rated if you believe the course changes are making such a difference?

The rating for the higher cappers would change yes imo.
but for the scratch man it isn’t any different.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Perhaps, But not exactly the 'hard evidence' that was asked for!

Any handicap sec (like me) would tell you that is what happened with handicaps, and the same at every club. What other evidence do you need? It's 2 years since this kicked in, we don't have before and after figures.